EWP. Yeah I know!!
- Thread starter BuckeyeOne
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Leo in N E Illinois
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Just a reminder. Seed, is the reassortment of genetic information. Each seedling is guaranteed to be different than the parent. Seedlings from 'Blue Shag' can not be called 'Blue Shag', they may only be labeled as EWP seedlings, and are not any more valuable than ordinary EWP seedlings. If they show unique traits, you can give each unique seedling a unique name. Then write it up and register them as new cultivars, but you can not call them 'Blue Shag' because they are genetically different from 'Blue Shag'. The rules.
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
@Leo in N E Illinois . Understood. So, an air layer or cutting can be referred to as "Blue Shag" as it has a direct tie to the "parent"? But, seeds will be different because they may have been cross pollenated with a different cultivar?
Great info!!
Great info!!
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
I have a question as to the removal of a large branch lower on this EWP.
To reduce the amount of "bleed", can I apply a girdle or tourniquet to the branch prior to cutting? Wouldn't this stop the flow of the auxins until the wound heals?
The picture shows the branch proposed for removal. Also shows a stub left from a previous reduction and circled is a large whorl that I will have to deal with later.
To reduce the amount of "bleed", can I apply a girdle or tourniquet to the branch prior to cutting? Wouldn't this stop the flow of the auxins until the wound heals?
The picture shows the branch proposed for removal. Also shows a stub left from a previous reduction and circled is a large whorl that I will have to deal with later.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Perhaps you could ask yourself this question. How will cutting off the circulation help the tree heal?
I suggest you wait until the tree is not so active before cutting the major branch and or sealing the cut immediately to reduce bleeding. In your neck of the woods that is not too long to wait. When you do reduce the branch, leave a stub for now and reduce completely at a time when the tree is about to enter a growing phase. This will speed the healing. Sealing the cut also helps to prevent pathogens and insects from entering! There are many products that can be used for sealing a stub.
You will need to think carefully when reducing the whorl in order to end up withthe scars in less obvious places in relation to the chosen front! Sometimes it helps to bend live branches first, then reduce later after the bend is set for Jin rather than large scars.
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
@River's Edge , I understand the leaving of a stub to be reduced at a later date. That is something @Vance Wood spoke of with the Mugos. Thanks for reinforcing that with other pines!
I just rethought the girdling and it would not help the healing of the wound after the final reduction, but may minimize the "bleed" from the initial cut. It would be sealed after both cuts.
The whorl will be an ongoing project to reduce with scars placed in the least obtrusive areas as possible. Wiring the branches to be utilized for the final design will be done prior to removing undesired branches.
I just rethought the girdling and it would not help the healing of the wound after the final reduction, but may minimize the "bleed" from the initial cut. It would be sealed after both cuts.
The whorl will be an ongoing project to reduce with scars placed in the least obtrusive areas as possible. Wiring the branches to be utilized for the final design will be done prior to removing undesired branches.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Initially leaving a stub is a good technique for most situations. I use it with deciduous as well, returning a month or so later to remove and prepare the area for proper healing. The details change for the species and bark characteristics. One other step to consider in larger scars is to leave a peg in the centre as another stage to aid healing! Typically i consider this in scar size of 1 1/2 inch or larger. The scar does not desiccate as quickly and healing is aided. This assumes that the scar is also aided with the application of cut paste, wound sealer or similar product.
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
@River's Edge , In reference to the use of a "peg" at the center of the wound, are you referring to what I can only refer to as a jin? The branch in question as approximately 1" diameter. Would this promote healing if I left this peg you mention?
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
No it is not a jin. It is a protrusion left in the centre when a branch is removed. Instead of a flush cut part of the centre portion is left with the outer perimeter cut away. I would not use this method on a smaller cut as it is not needed and is extra work to go back and finish the cut later. Two step method rather than one. Sorry i do not have a picture to aid in the explanation.
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
I didn't mean to leave it as a permanent jin, but to leave the stub and remove the cambium and xylem to bare wood up to the main truck and leave that as the "plug" or "peg" as you refer to it.
I have other trees that have some pretty large branches to be removed and I'm trying to understand the technique.
Thanks for the advice !
I have other trees that have some pretty large branches to be removed and I'm trying to understand the technique.
Thanks for the advice !
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
You've got it.
The exposed area and the peg will become resin saturated/coated and will harden - sealed!
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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It's an EWP, I have no thoughts except to use it as grafting understock for a nice blue colored JWP.
From photo that branch looks like it is coming from inside a curve. Awkward, it should get stubbed, then later pegged.
From photo that branch looks like it is coming from inside a curve. Awkward, it should get stubbed, then later pegged.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
That branch looks nothing like a trunk, so I don't think it works.
Besides, it is very straight, which brings up a thought --> put some wire on that branch a try to bend it into an upswept curve, say, like a second trunk. If it works, you can then think about potting it deeply so that this branch will seem to be a trunk. If it doesn't work out, you likely will lop it off. There's a good lesson to be learned here, IMHO.
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
Yeah, just a thought! Never said it was a good one!!
Any ideas as to the rest of the tree in regards to styling?
Any ideas as to the rest of the tree in regards to styling?
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
@Leo in N E Illinois Therefore the title of the thread!!! EWP. Yeah I know!!
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
With respect to styling. Questions?
What do you think you have to work with?
Where is the flow of the trunk best?
Where is the best nebari ?
What foliage do you have to work with?
How readily will you be able to develop interior foliage or new branching lower down?
What skills do i need to learn for this species?
After you reduce the whorl will there be a useable portion left?
How will you deal with the multiple scars?
The answers to these questions will help you decide.
Take it to an experienced Bonsai person for suggestions. The tree will pose opportunities in person that cannot be seen in one or two pictures. The fact that you chose this material in combination with your questions seem to indicate that you should go slow and get help in person. IMHO
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I did give / suggest a styling move, removing that branch, I can't see it in person, but if that branch is from inside a curve, it really should probably go. Let the rest grow a bit more, and see how the rest inspired you without that branch. If you are going for "classic" ewp - they tend to have a rigid straight trunk, then alternate up the trunk with long branch, short branch, long branch. Foliage above a fairly level horizontal branch. It is a fairly angular tree in silhouette. Yet when young, they are very willowy, and bendy. An odd contradiction.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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The time limit to edits posts expired, so this is my re-edited version of the most recent post I made. I am sincerely trying to be helpful. Don't dismiss my comments just because I have often dogged EWP in the past. Your tree is not a normal EWP.
edited post below:
I did give / suggest a styling move, removing that branch, I can't see it in person, but if that branch is from inside a curve, it really should probably go. Let the rest grow a bit more, and see how the rest inspired you without that branch. If you are going for "classic" ewp - they tend to have a rigid straight trunk, then alternate up the trunk with long branch, short branch, long branch. Foliage above a fairly level horizontal branch. It is a fairly angular tree in silhouette. Yet when young, they are very willowy, and bendy. An odd contradiction.
Hey, I just re-read the thread from the beginning. This IS a grafted tree. IT IS a unique cultivar of EWP - you really need to observe this tree for at least a year, maybe two to take advantage of its unique characteristics. This is not an ordinary EWP so ignore my comments is post #33. PUT YOUR TOOLS AWAY. LEAVE THIS TREE FOR ONE OR TWO YEARS AND LEARN HOW IT GROWS. This cultivar DOES NOT BEHAVE LIKE A WILD TYPE EWP.
If you MUST work on something, get a juniper and go to town on it. Or get an ordinary EWP or two normal EWP. One just let grow next to the 'Blue Shag' to server as a reference for normal growth habit. The third EWP you can chop away and see how it responds.
In all honesty, any work you do on this tree now will be wrong. Leave all the branches. In one or two years, after looking at it daily, or weekly and trying to identify different lines, from different angles, you can then begin reducing the count of branches at the whorls. But right now you need all of the branches. Remove any, and you won't be able to change fronts. This is a slow growing dwarf, read my early comments. You have time, take it to learn how to maximise potential out of material.
Anyone can rush in and butcher a tree. It takes skill, to learn to set a tree aside to learn its unique growth traits, and then style to take advantage of this.
I am not trying to be rude or a bully with the all caps, but you did not seem to grasp what I was talking about. Please re-read my earlier posts. I gave you serious styling advice. Sometimes putting the tools away, and observing and taking notes is the very best advise anyone can give.
edited post below:
I did give / suggest a styling move, removing that branch, I can't see it in person, but if that branch is from inside a curve, it really should probably go. Let the rest grow a bit more, and see how the rest inspired you without that branch. If you are going for "classic" ewp - they tend to have a rigid straight trunk, then alternate up the trunk with long branch, short branch, long branch. Foliage above a fairly level horizontal branch. It is a fairly angular tree in silhouette. Yet when young, they are very willowy, and bendy. An odd contradiction.
Hey, I just re-read the thread from the beginning. This IS a grafted tree. IT IS a unique cultivar of EWP - you really need to observe this tree for at least a year, maybe two to take advantage of its unique characteristics. This is not an ordinary EWP so ignore my comments is post #33. PUT YOUR TOOLS AWAY. LEAVE THIS TREE FOR ONE OR TWO YEARS AND LEARN HOW IT GROWS. This cultivar DOES NOT BEHAVE LIKE A WILD TYPE EWP.
If you MUST work on something, get a juniper and go to town on it. Or get an ordinary EWP or two normal EWP. One just let grow next to the 'Blue Shag' to server as a reference for normal growth habit. The third EWP you can chop away and see how it responds.
In all honesty, any work you do on this tree now will be wrong. Leave all the branches. In one or two years, after looking at it daily, or weekly and trying to identify different lines, from different angles, you can then begin reducing the count of branches at the whorls. But right now you need all of the branches. Remove any, and you won't be able to change fronts. This is a slow growing dwarf, read my early comments. You have time, take it to learn how to maximise potential out of material.
Anyone can rush in and butcher a tree. It takes skill, to learn to set a tree aside to learn its unique growth traits, and then style to take advantage of this.
I am not trying to be rude or a bully with the all caps, but you did not seem to grasp what I was talking about. Please re-read my earlier posts. I gave you serious styling advice. Sometimes putting the tools away, and observing and taking notes is the very best advise anyone can give.
BuckeyeOne
Chumono
@Leo in N E Illinois Understood! I took no offense to your comment as to EWPs!
My questions in regards to this "Dwarf Blue Shag" were in order to develop an action plan in the next few years. I realize that they are a slow growing cultivar and any changes/reductions will take years to redevelop if bad decisions are made.
I am going to repot in spring out of the current nursery soil and sit back and observe for at least a year.
As you or someone else may have suggested, I may remove the first branch on the bottom left as it does originate on the inside of a curve and right now I don't see it in the design. Also, the stub left from a previous branch will be reduced. ( I'll wait 'til next year to make a final decision)
Again, I just want to say thanks for the input! It is valued!
Buck
P.S. I'm getting pretty good at bending up a bunch of Procumbens!!
My questions in regards to this "Dwarf Blue Shag" were in order to develop an action plan in the next few years. I realize that they are a slow growing cultivar and any changes/reductions will take years to redevelop if bad decisions are made.
I am going to repot in spring out of the current nursery soil and sit back and observe for at least a year.
As you or someone else may have suggested, I may remove the first branch on the bottom left as it does originate on the inside of a curve and right now I don't see it in the design. Also, the stub left from a previous branch will be reduced. ( I'll wait 'til next year to make a final decision)
Again, I just want to say thanks for the input! It is valued!
Buck
P.S. I'm getting pretty good at bending up a bunch of Procumbens!!
