Ebihara maples

[Adair M]

Adair, is this. Ebihara's technique? The reason I ask, there is a different root growth response between wide, shallow containers and deep containers.

Gary, I don't think so. As I understand it, Mr Ebihara's technique was the original "screw it to a board" method, and he built wooden grow boxes.

I offered this method up as an alternative.

My understanding of the Ebihara method is to bury the board under a couple inches of soil. The tile method I posted shows it being much closer to the surface.

Boon gave the tile method out at an Intensive. In fact, I don't recall him ever saying "Tile". I think he was just showing how the roots could be secured down to the surface using wire.

I just noticed today that the trunk wasn't attached by a screw.

The end result, the flat plate nebari, appear to be very similiar. Both methods would have you prune back the heavy roots each year to the point where the new roots will be growing horizontally for a bit before they eventually head down. As soon as the roots reach the edge of the surface, they go straight down. They don't keep going horizontal. So, if you want a really big plate, you need a big board!

I suppose to properly evaluate which method is "superior", someone would have to try both methods, and see which worked better for them.

 

[0soyoung]

Are you sure that the 'tile method' doesn't start with threading a seedling through the hole in the tile?

 

[markyscott]

Gary, I don't think so. As I understand it, Mr Ebihara's technique was the original "screw it to a board" method, and he built wooden grow boxes.

I offered this method up as an alternative.

My understanding of the Ebihara method is to bury the board under a couple inches of soil. The tile method I posted shows it being much closer to the surface.

Boon gave the tile method out at an Intensive. In fact, I don't recall him ever saying "Tile". I think he was just showing how the roots could be secured down to the surface using wire.

I just noticed today that the trunk wasn't attached by a screw.

The end result, the flat plate nebari, appear to be very similiar. Both methods would have you prune back the heavy roots each year to the point where the new roots will be growing horizontally for a bit before they eventually head down. As soon as the roots reach the edge of the surface, they go straight down. They don't keep going horizontal. So, if you want a really big plate, you need a big board!

I suppose to properly evaluate which method is "superior", someone would have to try both methods, and see which worked better for them.

Are you sure that the 'tile method' doesn't start with threading a seedling through the hole in the tile?

Hi Oso. I think there are many methods. What you speak of is certainly one, but not the one taught in the note that Adair wrote. It's an effective technique, though. I've used it before as well.

And in terms of what specific techniques that Ebihara did or did not use, I wouldn't profess to know. But I think it's likely a mistake to assume his lexicon was limited to any one technique. I view him as a master grower and developer of trees - and not just deciduous. He for sure used the technique we started this discussion to describe, but he used many others - perhaps the ones that both Oso and Adair mentioned as well.

He was a master grafter, as an example. I've read articles describing cases where he thread grafted seedlings to developed branches to keep them alive while he moved them to entirely different parts of the tree. Take a look (photo credit: Bonsai Tonight):




These are from Ebihara's garden. In the first picture, he thread grafts a seedling onto an existing branch (note the wire he's using to girdle the branch). In the second, he removes the branch which he continues to develop. In the third, he grafts the entire branch onto a different part of the tree. Amazing.

Here's another fascinating technique he employed (photo credit: Bonsai Tonight):


This is also from Ebihara's garden. See how he removes large branches? He cuts a notch from the branch us wishes to remove. The he lets it grow so that both the tree and the branch help heal a smaller wound than you would have if you removed the entire branch in one go.

And many other really fascinating techniques. More than we'll ever know, I'm afraid, as I believe that he's out of the business now.

 

[MACH5]

Hi Oso. I think there are many methods. What you speak of is certainly one, but not the one taught in the note that Adair wrote. It's an effective technique, though. I've used it before as well.

And in terms of what specific techniques that Ebihara did or did not use, I would it profess to know. But I think it's likely a mistake to assume his lexicon was limited to any one technique. I view him as a master grower and developer of trees - and not just deciduous. He for sure used the technique we started this discussion to describe, but he used many others - perhaps the ones that both Oso and Adair mentioned as well.

He was a master grafter, as an example. I've read articles describing cases where he thread grafted seedlings to developed branches to keep them alive while he moved them to entirely different parts of the tree. Take a look (photo credit: Bonsai Tonight):
View attachment 106664
View attachment 106665
View attachment 106666

Indeed a fascinating technique. I saw Mr. Urushibata using this very same technique at Taisho-en. It gives the artist the possibility of recreating or improving your own tree by repurposing old and well developed branches. This is one technique I'd like to master. If for nothing else than for sheer technical virtuosity.

 

[markyscott]

Indeed a fascinating technique. I saw Mr. Urushibata using this very same technique at Taisho-en. It gives the artist the possibility of recreating or improving your own tree by repurposing old and well developed branches. This is one technique I'd like to master. If for nothing else than for sheer technical virtuosity.

I was blown away. Did you notice anything different in the way Mr Urushibata employed the technique?

 

[0soyoung]

Indeed a fascinating technique. I saw Mr. Urushibata using this very same technique at Taisho-en. It gives the artist the possibility of recreating or improving your own tree by repurposing old and well developed branches. This is one technique I'd like to master. If for nothing else than for sheer technical virtuosity.

me2

It has crossed my mind to use it to shorten a long branch on something that doesn't backbud like on an Hinoki. Also to shorten and thin a branch that is too long and heavy as is, effectively chopping out the heavy part near the trunk.

 

[MACH5]

I was blown away. Did you notice anything different in the way Mr Urushibata employed the technique?

Scott, at the time, he was using the same idea to add a new trunk to a large maple clump. In a Bonsai Focus article he is also seen using same exact technique as Mr. Ebihara to relocate a branch on a maple.

 

[markyscott]

Scott, at the time, he was using the same idea to add a new trunk to a large maple clump. In a Bonsai Focus article he is also seen using same exact technique as Mr. Ebihara to relocate a branch on a maple.

It looks like the trunk below the seedling graft is alive. I wonder how long it can stay so? I always assumed they would die right away - the pegs below the graft look dead in the picture Jonas took of Ebihara's grafted branches in pots.

 

[Adair M]

Boon showed us one of his techniques where he shortened the apex of a maple. These was a long straight section he wanted to remove, so he was able to cut out the straight section, cut the bottom and top sections to exactly fit together, and the fused together!

It was at my first Intensive, and I can't remember if the top had a lifeline seedling grafted on first. But I don't think it did! Again, I was so blown away by everything I was being taught, I'm amazed I can remember anything!

 

[Adair M]

It looks like the trunk below the seedling graft is alive. I wonder how long it can stay so? I always assumed they would die right away - the pegs below the graft look dead in the picture Jonas took of Ebihara's grafted branches in pots.

Juan recently did one of these, and he used the branch immediately on the new tree.

I have wondered about the peg in the inventory trees, too.

 

[MACH5]

It looks like the trunk below the seedling graft is alive. I wonder how long it can stay so? I always assumed they would die right away - the pegs below the graft look dead in the picture Jonas took of Ebihara's grafted branches in pots.

Not sure. I didn't stop to ask him but I think logically it should keep all parts alive? I am guessing that in Jonas's pics, Mr. Ebihara may have prepared his branches by cutting their base to a short stub and maybe that's why they are dead or appear to be so.

 

[markyscott]

Not sure. I didn't stop to ask him but I think logically it should keep all parts alive? I am guessing that in Jonas's pics, Mr. Ebihara may have prepared his branches by cutting their base to a short stub and maybe that's why they are dead or appear to be so.

I have to admit, I don't have much of an intuition about this, but I've always thought that the sap flow would be between the roots and the leaves. The stumped end would eventually wither away. But perhaps it keep it alive long enough for the graft to fuse. I don't think I would have guessed that - I'm going to have to go back and reread that Bonsai Focus article. Would you mind sharing in which issue the article was written?

Thanks

 

[MACH5]

I have to admit, I don't have much of an intuition about this, but I've always thought that the sap flow would be between the roots and the leaves. The stumped end would eventually wither away. But perhaps it keep it alive long enough for the graft to fuse. I don't think I would have guessed that - I'm going to have to go back and reread that Bonsai Focus article. Would you mind sharing in which issue the article was written?

Thanks

Scott it is the May-June issue from 2008 #115. I have been fascinated by this technique for many years now. I knew that Mr. Urushibata practiced it so when I went to visit him, I took that same BF issue and had him sign it for me.

 

[coh]

I have to admit, I don't have much of an intuition about this, but I've always thought that the sap flow would be between the roots and the leaves. The stumped end would eventually wither away. But perhaps it keep it alive long enough for the graft to fuse. I don't think I would have guessed that - I'm going to have to go back and reread that Bonsai Focus article. Would you mind sharing in which issue the article was written?

Thanks

Yes, please follow-up on this if possible. I would also think the stumped end would die back if left for too long after separation but maybe we're just wrong about that. This is a technique I'm considering for a trident maple I have, so any additional information would be helpful.

 

[AlainK]

Thanks for this thread I've bookmarked.

 

[wireme]

Here also is an example of a branch built in the manner that Adair discussed. As you can see, the downward shoot was eliminated in every case. I don't think this is a Boon thing - it's certainly how he was taught and how he teaches pruning, but neither of these examples are from Boon's garden.

View attachment 101146

Pick a maple you admire and study the branching - it's generally easy to see how they were built by looking at the structure. This is a great maple to me - I really like the branch structure. So I eliminate the downward growth and wire the upward growth down. That's how this tree was developed and I want my branch structure to look like this.

Sorry to backtrack the thread so far but...
Here's some branches in my spruce yamadori shaped by nature along the line of what you guys are saying.

 

[M. Frary]

I have a question.
When spreading the roots and pegging them in place ate they laid flat or is something put under them in various places to give them an undulating look?
I saw it somewhere. Maybe @Smoke blog? Pieces of chopstick were placed under the root in various places to put a lump in them.
Maybe I dreamt it up but I don't think so.

 

[markyscott]

Sorry to backtrack the thread so far but...
Here's some branches in my spruce yamadori shaped by nature along the line of what you guys are saying. View attachment 106940View attachment 106941View attachment 106942View attachment 106943

Thanks for those examples, wireme. They beautifully illustrate the point we were discussing.

 

[markyscott]

I have a question.
When spreading the roots and pegging them in place ate they laid flat or is something put under them in various places to give them an undulating look?
I saw it somewhere. Maybe @Smoke blog? Pieces of chopstick were placed under the root in various places to put a lump in them.
Maybe I dreamt it up but I don't think so.

Hi Mike. I don't think you were imagining. I seem to recall a discussion of using a chopstick under the roots, but I don't recall where I read it. It may make for an interesting effect, but I haven't tried on my trees nor have I seen it tried on those I've worked on.

 

[Smoke]

I have a question.
When spreading the roots and pegging them in place ate they laid flat or is something put under them in various places to give them an undulating look?
I saw it somewhere. Maybe @Smoke blog? Pieces of chopstick were placed under the root in various places to put a lump in them.
Maybe I dreamt it up but I don't think so.

You must be thinking about the thread when I put the potato in my pants to look more manly. I thought things were looking good until a gal told me the potato goes in the front, not the back!