Ebay bonsai sellers are thieves

[coh]

I have friends a few miles from my house that purchased this 6 foot tall Skull covered with tiles from the "Ancient Streets of Shang Hi for $450000. They purchased it while they were at one of there properties overseas and flew it here on their jet. Even more odd - they have never spent more then a total of 60 days a year here and to them it is quite simply "a lawn ornament"...





Hard to say what the might spend on a Bonsai but I do know they Import 15000 Tulip Bulbs each year to plant just at that property... *sigh*

I wonder if the guy who cuts their grass has any idea what that thing cost. Oooops, what did I just hit?

 

[Lazylightningny]

It sounded to me like you were frustrated by trying to find reasonably priced material for your level.

You're right, this was the source of my frustration. I do have a club near me, called Yama Ki. I went to a demo they sponsored with Mauro Stemberger. They seemed like a good bunch of people, so I may join.

Thanks for the heads up on the Jersey show.

 

[michaelj]

My takeaway from this is that when I run out of money to fuel my hobby, I can take some of my lower quality material and sell it on eBay for a pretty strong price to allow me to resume my spending.

 

[berobinson82]

My takeaway from this is that when I run out of money to fuel my hobby, I can take some of my lower quality material and sell it on eBay for a pretty strong price to allow me to resume my spending.

With a little land and a little patience, in a few years, you really wouldn't have to pay for this hobby at all if you could sell grown out cuttings in abundance.

 

[MiteyF]

I think anyone complaining about high prices (let alone on ebay) is barking up the wrong tree. It's called capitalism. You have something you want money for. And you likely want the most money you can get, right? So you put something up for a high price. If someone buys it, that means 2 things. (1) you got a lot of money for your goods, and (2) someone thought what you had to offer was worth the price. EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

Say someone offers up a 1965 Ferrari for $7 million. "Market price" is only $6 million. Someone decides to buy it for the full $7 million asking price. Does that make the seller an asshole? NO! It means that 2 people came to a mutual agreement regarding the price of an item, AND IT DOES NOT CONCERN YOU! If you don't want to buy something for a given price, don't buy it! This is simple stuff here.

It would be one thing if someone had a monopoly on an item that people NEEDED. If one company owned 100% off all aspirin rights, and started selling it for no less than $100/bottle, that's one thing. But to overprice small houseplants is small beans. Pick your battles.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think anyone complaining about high prices (let alone on ebay) is barking up the wrong tree. It's called capitalism. You have something you want money for. And you likely want the most money you can get, right? So you put something up for a high price. If someone buys it, that means 2 things. (1) you got a lot of money for your goods, and (2) someone thought what you had to offer was worth the price. EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

Say someone offers up a 1965 Ferrari for $7 million. "Market price" is only $6 million. Someone decides to buy it for the full $7 million asking price. Does that make the seller an asshole? NO! It means that 2 people came to a mutual agreement regarding the price of an item, AND IT DOES NOT CONCERN YOU! If you don't want to buy something for a given price, don't buy it! This is simple stuff here.

It would be one thing if someone had a monopoly on an item that people NEEDED. If one company owned 100% off all aspirin rights, and started selling it for no less than $100/bottle, that's one thing. But to overprice small houseplants is small beans. Pick your battles.

Got to be careful here someone may consider this to be a boarder-line political post.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I think anyone complaining about high prices (let alone on ebay) is barking up the wrong tree. It's called capitalism. You have something you want money for. And you likely want the most money you can get, right? So you put something up for a high price. If someone buys it, that means 2 things. (1) you got a lot of money for your goods, and (2) someone thought what you had to offer was worth the price. EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

Say someone offers up a 1965 Ferrari for $7 million. "Market price" is only $6 million. Someone decides to buy it for the full $7 million asking price. Does that make the seller an asshole? NO! It means that 2 people came to a mutual agreement regarding the price of an item, AND IT DOES NOT CONCERN YOU! If you don't want to buy something for a given price, don't buy it! This is simple stuff here.

It would be one thing if someone had a monopoly on an item that people NEEDED. If one company owned 100% off all aspirin rights, and started selling it for no less than $100/bottle, that's one thing. But to overprice small houseplants is small beans. Pick your battles.

I hear what you're saying, but, for example, in the days before the Lemon Laws were passed, unscrupulous used car dealers sold cars that died 5 miles after driving them off the lot. I agree that a thing is worth what someone will pay for it; that's a basic premise of capitalism and what made America great, but at the same time I think there are a lot of "used car salesmen" on the internet who will sell anything to an unsuspecting rube for as much as they can get. Of course the burden is on the consumer to educate him or herself before laying out cash, but you must admit that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen on the internet.

We seem to be in a renaissance in the bonsai field now; what goes with that is good and bad. The good is that more and better products are being offered, that research and experimentation are booming, that the internet allows us all to communicate and have reasonable discussions like this. The bad is that it opens the gate wide for unscrupulous dealers to sell crap at ridiculous prices to the unsuspecting and uneducated.

 

[MiteyF]

We seem to be in a renaissance in the bonsai field now; what goes with that is good and bad. The good is that more and better products are being offered, that research and experimentation are booming, that the internet allows us all to communicate and have reasonable discussions like this. The bad is that it opens the gate wide for unscrupulous dealers to sell crap at ridiculous prices to the unsuspecting and uneducated.

So shame on the buyer for not doing his research. If you bought something online (it doesn't matter what it was), and later found it for 1/2 the price, would you be angry at the seller for overcharging, or angry at yourself for not shopping around?

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't think that some of you have any idea how much money there is to be made in bonsai if it's done correctly. I can take some three or four year old Scots Pine nursery liners chop them down and regrow the branching. In about three years care I can resell the trees for $100.00 or there about, and that is not on the INTERNET.

 

[edprocoat]

I did not read this thread as I felt I would not have much to offer never dealing with EBAY. I read this page and the first one and the most sensible offering I have seen was Caveat Emptor. The premise of this thread is off, who can put a price on another's efforts? if one is willing to procure a plant, place it in a pot, wire it then go through the process of selling it who can decide what their efforts are worth. You may be willing to go through all that for $50 while I may think the trouble was worth $500 to me. If I pay $500 for it after looking at it online and deciding I liked it enough to part with the money does it make it worth less as you know it can be achieved more cheaply? This is the way the free market system works, I decide what my "widget" is worth, if it sells for that price I am happy, if not I either adjust my price or find a new business.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

So shame on the buyer for not doing his research. If you bought something online (it doesn't matter what it was), and later found it for 1/2 the price, would you be angry at the seller for overcharging, or angry at yourself for not shopping around?

Personally once I buy something I am not so anal that I keep shopping to see if I could have bought it cheaper. I once paid $100 for a 6 pack of Budweiser as the store could not sell beer after 2:00 am and I was still partying. I never once thought I was ripped off as I am an adult and I live with my decisions, I guess this thread plays into the "nanny state" mentality the country has evolved into.

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

Personally once I buy something I am not so anal that I keep shopping to see if I could have bought it cheaper. I once paid $100 for a 6 pack of Budweiser as the store could not sell beer after 2:00 am and I was still partying. I never once thought I was ripped off as I am an adult and I live with my decisions, I guess this thread plays into the "nanny state" mentality the country has evolved into.

ed

Not to have too many things to say either way about the Nanny State, understanding that many think this is the way to go and how government should function, it is none the less true that many think it evil to produce a product that can actually sell for more than what has been invested in it. My father used to say a thing is only worth what you can get for it. In other words; the market place will dictate what a product is worth. It is also true that the anxious and the impatient customer can be taken by an inferior product simply because they have not taken the time to research and look for alternatives.

I have said it here many times but it is one of those things that bears repeating: I never buy a tree that I cannot put my hands on, fell the life flowing through it, look at it with my own eyes and smell it.

 

[greenboy21]

Wow - Incredible Responses

I don't know much about bonsai but I know a lot about business! I'd be very interested to see how many of the responders to this thread own their own business. Those of you who think it is ok or just capitalism to just screw someone over with a garbage item just because they were willing to pay that price are just DEAD WRONG. If you screw someone over in most cases they are done and thats it you have lost that business. In order to survive almost all business need real repeat customers that give great reviews to friends and family about their experiences. My family and I have been in business in the same small town for over 50 years and believe me those businesses that sell junk to people at ridiculous prices dont last long. And dont give me that sob story garbage about food on the table etc. If you screw a guy for $300 and he never comes again and bashes your business to others that would maybe have used you thats never going to be as profitable as developing that customer in the right way. He may spend $1000's over the years and bring others to your business. Paying a premium for an item that you really want is totally different and all examples people here have given are exactly that - an ancient unique statue, a crazy rare ferrari etc. - this is simply supply and demand and the desire to own. And yes there are some incredibly wealthy people out there that can afford to waste money but for the most part screwing people is never a good business plan.

 

[berobinson82]

It's not just ebay. Some of the trees for sale on this forum are priced outrageously.

 

[thams]

I don't know much about bonsai but I know a lot about business! I'd be very interested to see how many of the responders to this thread own their own business. Those of you who think it is ok or just capitalism to just screw someone over with a garbage item just because they were willing to pay that price are just DEAD WRONG. If you screw someone over in most cases they are done and thats it you have lost that business. In order to survive almost all business need real repeat customers that give great reviews to friends and family about their experiences. My family and I have been in business in the same small town for over 50 years and believe me those businesses that sell junk to people at ridiculous prices dont last long. And dont give me that sob story garbage about food on the table etc. If you screw a guy for $300 and he never comes again and bashes your business to others that would maybe have used you thats never going to be as profitable as developing that customer in the right way. He may spend $1000's over the years and bring others to your business. Paying a premium for an item that you really want is totally different and all examples people here have given are exactly that - an ancient unique statue, a crazy rare ferrari etc. - this is simply supply and demand and the desire to own. And yes there are some incredibly wealthy people out there that can afford to waste money but for the most part screwing people is never a good business plan.

I think the point is that a business selling junk for too much will quickly go under as a result. The market will determine whether the demand for those trees is worth the asking price. If not, then the seller will suffer. Problem solved. No one here is advocating bad business models from what I've read. Of course repeat customers make a business successful -- that's why businesses with bad reputations never last.

If you're not happy with the price of a tree, haggle or pass it up. Simple as that.

 

[Vance Wood]

It's not just ebay. Some of the trees for sale on this forum are priced outrageously.

Again we are back to my father's original point: A thing is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. I can and will agree with you, some of the trees for sale on this forum, though I am not sure where on this forum trees are being sold are priced outrageously. We are at this point discussing relative value. If I find a tree that is $500 for sale and I really want that tree and $500 seems like a good and reasonable price for that tree and I don''t mind paying $500 for that tree, then I would pay $500 for that tree. In short $500 was a reasonable price for my new tree. You on the other hand would not buy this tree for $500 because you think that $500 is way too much to charge for this tree.

Now; where the market place kicks in it works in two basic areas. Most important is that of competition. Competition will always drive price down. In the case of the $500 tree, it is possible that vendor A selling the tree for $500--- but Vendor B is selling a similar tree for $300--- if everything else is equal (which it almost never is) the tree selling for $300 will sell first, faster and more. If Vendor B has enough $300 trees and he is successful in selling, eventually Vendor A will have to reduce his price or eat his $500 trees. This brings up the concept of pricing one's self out of the market and the $500 tree disappears.

However there is in bonsai another factor that does not usually show itself in other products. If Vendor A finds that his trees are not selling for $500 he can simply keep the trees, work on them, improve them and comeback next year and sell them for $600. I have engaged in this practice to amazing results my self. The only problem here is in producing a product that is attractive enough that you do not have to apologize for their appearance.

So; as my father said: "A thing is worth only what someone else is willing to pay for it" is true and is a basic law that cannot be changed without the intervention of an outside source, usually government in some form or another. If it's price is worth it to me then I will pay the price. If it's price is not worth it to me I won't pay the price, unless forced to by an outside source; usually government.

 

[coh]

I think the point is that a business selling junk for too much will quickly go under as a result. The market will determine whether the demand for those trees is worth the asking price. If not, then the seller will suffer. Problem solved. No one here is advocating bad business models from what I've read. Of course repeat customers make a business successful -- that's why businesses with bad reputations never last.

True but I think the internet is a different marketplace. It's one thing to sell overpriced crap to people you see in the limited market that is your own town, but on the internet you've got a global audience, you can shut down under one name and re-open under another (or move from ebay to craigslist, etc). It should eventually catch up with you but I bet someone motivated enough could keep going for quite a while.

If you're not happy with the price of a tree, haggle or pass it up. Simple as that.

Definitely. I have successfully negotiated lower prices on trees from what I would consider "major" on-line vendors. As others have said, ultimately both the buyer and the seller have to be satisfied with the price for any deal to work. If you think the price is too high, what do you have to lose by contacting the seller and offering something lower. Just like negotiating to buy a house, they can reject, accept, or counter and you go from there.

Happy shopping!

Chris

 

[mcpesq817]

I think the point is that a business selling junk for too much will quickly go under as a result. The market will determine whether the demand for those trees is worth the asking price. If not, then the seller will suffer. Problem solved. No one here is advocating bad business models from what I've read. Of course repeat customers make a business successful -- that's why businesses with bad reputations never last.

If you're not happy with the price of a tree, haggle or pass it up. Simple as that.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Si Nguyen]

What is worse for our bonsai society?
1) A few " thieves" selling a few hundred over-priced bonsai on eBay.
Or
2) A thousand big box stores like HomeDepot or Walmart selling a million bonsai for really cheap.

By the way, the title of this thread is very insulting to anybody who ever sell anything on eBay. Good thing the PC police is not here to shut this down Carry on.

 

[Lazylightningny]

What is worse for our bonsai society?
1) A few thieves selling a few hundred over-priced bonsai on eBay.
Or
2) A thousand big box stores like HomeDepot or Walmart selling a million bonsai for really cheap.

By the way, the title of this thread is very insulting to anybody who ever sell anything on eBay. Good thing the PC police is not here to shut this down Carry on.

Perhaps I should have said, many ebay sellers are thieves.

There, that will keep the police at bay.

By the way, my local Home Depot doesn't sell any bonsai, but they do sell really healthy plants in the garden dept. You just have to spend years chasing growth back closer to the trunk.