Do you buy raw bonsai stock from traditional garden center retailers?

[onthefringe]

Rick Moquin,

I'm not at all afraid of a little deviating. I hope you caught that in my post. I guess I just have a little trouble with "inner dialog"

I actually met Walter P in 2005. He was observing a tree at the Chicago botanic gardens and called a tree out by botanic name. I have tinnitus from serving in the military and didn't hear him quite right and asked what him what he'd said and was very adiment that I learn botanic names because if I didn't it would cause tons of trouble later down the road. Well I had figured between his traveling and jet lag he didn't have to undesrtand why I asked what he had said. I still found his presence and presentation delightful and was able to get over the whole thing quickly.

Like wise I respect his perspective on bonsai completely with reguards to high standards of excellence. We can all learn a great deal from his example.

 

[Smoke]

Chris, for the sake of saving a thousand replies to your many posts quoting myself, can you sum up your argument in a few words? If you disagree at all.

I have said price or location does not automatically dictate quality. I have not said people should work with garbage, that traditional nurseries are superior, nor that any one place should be the only place to shop.

Please let us know what exactly you disagree with so I can address it and move on to other, not so obvious, subjects.


Will

Maybe I can shed a different light on it. I don't think Chris or I or half a dozen other disagree with you at all. I think where the discussion falls apart is the black and white approach that Mr. Heath takes in many discussions. For instance I don't think in general Will dismisses anything we have said about stock with the exception that paying more for something does not mean it will turn out well. I agree and probably so does everyone else.

What I think is missing is that in this kind of exchange most everyone excepts the fact the we can use the phrase "with everything being equal" which Mr. Heath does not embrace in this thread. I feel he is fixated more on the talent aspect rather than discussing this thread for it's intention. There are many more sub threads that each deserve discussion in their own right. I think for the sake of argument it is better to leave those meaty subjects for another thread.

Better trees come from better material.
Better material comes at a price.
Better material is not always the most expensive.
The best material is yamadori.
Yamadori does not guarentee results anymore than excellent nursery material or field grown stock.

The key is starting with the best material at any price. For some that may be expensive or it may be as little as free. The one thing that will be consistant throughout is that the value will be high no matter what. Each can percieve that to be whatever they want.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris, for the sake of saving a thousand replies to your many posts quoting myself, can you sum up your argument in a few words? If you disagree at all.

I have said price or location does not automatically dictate quality. I have not said people should work with garbage, that traditional nurseries are superior, nor that any one place should be the only place to shop.

Please let us know what exactly you disagree with so I can address it and move on to other, not so obvious, subjects.


Will

Now it's my turn to *yawn*

 

[onthefringe]

Maybe I can shed a different light on it. I don't think Chris or I or half a dozen other disagree with you at all. I think where the discussion falls apart is the black and white approach that Mr. Heath takes in many discussions. For instance I don't think in general Will dismisses anything we have said about stock with the exception that paying more for something does not mean it will turn out well. I agree and probably so does everyone else.

What I think is missing is that in this kind of exchange most everyone excepts the fact the we can use the phrase "with everything being equal" which Mr. Heath does not embrace in this thread. I feel he is fixated more on the talent aspect rather than discussing this thread for it's intention. There are many more sub threads that each deserve discussion in their own right. I think for the sake of argument it is better to leave those meaty subjects for another thread.

Better trees come from better material.
Better material comes at a price.
Better material is not always the most expensive.
The best material is yamadori.
Yamadori does not guarentee results anymore than excellent nursery material or field grown stock.

The key is starting with the best material at any price. For some that may be expensive or it may be as little as free. The one thing that will be consistant throughout is that the value will be high no matter what. Each can percieve that to be whatever they want.

Smoke,
Your last two Paragraphs sum up nearly two entire threads!

 

[bonsai barry]

Smoke,
Your last two Paragraphs sum up nearly two entire threads!

Succinct people will be the death of this forum!

 

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I can shed a different light on it. I don't think Chris or I or half a dozen other disagree with you at all. I think where the discussion falls apart is the black and white approach that Mr. Heath takes in many discussions. For instance I don't think in general Will dismisses anything we have said about stock with the exception that paying more for something does not mean it will turn out well. I agree and probably so does everyone else.

What I think is missing is that in this kind of exchange most everyone excepts the fact the we can use the phrase "with everything being equal" which Mr. Heath does not embrace in this thread. I feel he is fixated more on the talent aspect rather than discussing this thread for it's intention. There are many more sub threads that each deserve discussion in their own right. I think for the sake of argument it is better to leave those meaty subjects for another thread.

Al,

Once again you focus on me instead of the topic at hand, if you disagree with the thoughts I have put forth, by all means state your reasons, give your basis, and let's debate. However, since you have repeatedly said you agree with me, I can not find a single reason why you would continue to drag the debate on, except personal...and honestly, that approach is old, worn, and tired.

Everything is not equal with stock Al, which is why the best bonsai nurseries in the world will still have varying levels of stock, some great, some crap. The same could be said about traditional nurseries or even the wild. This is where the topic of talent comes in (the same topic a few people here try so desperately to avoid) because without the talent to recognize good stock and the talent to actually turn the stock into an artistic bonsai, the whole subject is mute.

Here is a thought to sink your teeth into, without talent the best chance a person has to own a decent bonsai is to buy one someone with talent has already created. Hopefully then the person will at least have the skills required to maintain it.

This is not to downplay the importance of collectors, but collectors take no credit for the talent spent creating the bonsai, in fact they elevate it.

Better trees come from better material.

Mostly wrong Al, The best material in the world will not magically transform itself into better bonsai, it also requires talent. Your words should be, the vast majority of quality bonsai are produced from the work of a talented person on quality stock.

The key is starting with the best material at any price. For some that may be expensive or it may be as little as free.

This is almost exactly what I have been saying since my first post, the same words Chris and yourself debated against. Price does not automatically assure quality.


Will

 

[Attila Soos]

Price does not automatically assure quality.

How about this:

If I am selling two trees with bonsai potential, and the quality of one tree is far superior to the other (much more character, interesting shape, many options), then I will set the price accordingly. The quality of the two trees will dictate the price. If I am selling the cheaper tree for $100, then I will probably price the far better tree for at least double ($200).

I think anybody with a little knowledge of bonsai will see the relationship between price and quality. So, when I sell something for a higher price, I can assure you that there is a higher quality involved.

Of course, the above example needs some common sense: we are talking about the two trees belonging to the same species (or similar species), having approximately in the same size categories, etc. As Al said, certain factors need to be equal: meaning that you have to compare apples to apples.

You don't have to be a genious to recongnize that price has to do with more than just quality. Price also involves other factors, such as species (a black or white pine commands higher price than an elm of similar quality), origin, rarity, pedigree (the name of the artist involved in the tree's past), age of the tree, access of the seller and buyer to a market (very important factor),and many others.

For the sake of a logical argument, when we talk about how one factor affects price (such as quality), we need to set all the other factors to "being equal". This is a basic method in science: we create a controlled setting in a laboratory, by setting all the factors to being equal, and changing one factor at a time.

I've noticed time and time again, that when people start losing an argument, they start mixing up all the factors, and then using the newly created scenarios to prove their point.

This is the case in discussing the effect of quality on price. When one says "Quality affects price", those who don't understand this, respond "Price does not assure quality". They don't see that the response, although is true, has nothing to do with the original statement. This is a common tactic in shady politics: trying to counter-argue a statement with a response that it is true, but has nothing to do with the original one.

So, please realize, that when discussing the relationship of two factors, all the other factors have to be set to "equal". Do not come up with the "pearl of wisdom" that "there is no such thing as all factors being equal". We already know that. But for the sake of the analysis, we can only change one factor at a time. If one doesn't realize this, I think the person has got a bigger problem than the scope of this Internet discussion.

Sorry Will for using your response as an example, it is not your response personally that I am against, but the style of discussion often found on these forums often makes it impossible to have a rational conversation. But I guess that's my problem, the world is not about to change.

 

[Vance Wood]

How about this:

If I am selling two trees with bonsai potential, and the quality of one tree is far superior to the other (much more character, interesting shape, many options), then I will set the price accordingly. The quality of the two trees will dictate the price. If I am selling the cheaper tree for $100, then I will probably price the far better tree for at least double ($200).

I think anybody with a little knowledge of bonsai will see the relationship between price and quality. So, when I sell something for a higher price, I can assure you that there is a higher quality involved.

Of course, the above example needs some common sense: we are talking about the two trees belonging to the same species (or similar species), having approximately in the same size categories, etc. As Al said, certain factors need to be equal: meaning that you have to compare apples to apples.

You don't have to be a genious to recongnize that price has to do with more than just quality. Price also involves other factors, such as species (a black or white pine commands higher price than an elm of similar quality), origin, rarity, pedigree (the name of the artist involved in the tree's past), age of the tree, access of the seller and buyer to a market (very important factor),and many others.

For the sake of a logical argument, when we talk about how one factor affects price (such as quality), we need to set all the other factors to "being equal". This is a basic method in science: we create a controlled setting in a laboratory, by setting all the factors to being equal, and changing one factor at a time.

I've noticed time and time again, that when people start losing an argument, they start mixing up all the factors, and then using the newly created scenarios to prove their point.

This is the case in discussing the effect of quality on price. When one says "Quality affects price", those who don't understand this, respond "Price does not assure quality". They don't see that the response, although is true, has nothing to do with the original statement. This is a common tactic in shady politics: trying to counter-argue a statement with a response that it is true, but has nothing to do with the original one.

So, please realize, that when discussing the relationship of two factors, all the other factors have to be set to "equal". Do not come up with the "pearl of wisdom" that "there is no such thing as all factors being equal". We already know that. But for the sake of the analysis, we can only change one factor at a time. If one doesn't realize this, I think the person has got a bigger problem than the scope of this Internet discussion.

The problem is that some are trying to make an "Always That Way" argument out of something that is more "Sometimes That Way" pair of opposing issues. Neither proposition is correct all of the time.

Example: A number of years ago I was able to obtain two very nice J. Maples, one was a Murisaki Koto Hyme and the other Shi Shi Gashira, Lions Mane maple. Both were in 3 gallon buckets and had trunks that were large, even and with perfect grafts. How much do you suspect these two trees to sell for in a bonsai nursery? How much do you suspect these two trees to sell for in a Mom and Pop Nursery? I expect the answers to honest because I plan on being honest with my reply, but I do hope to get a few knowledgeable responses.

 

[Rick Moquin]

... a knowledgeable response Vance is: As soon as you attach "bonsai" to anything that is sold, the price rises exponentially.

I pay $0.89 for my screening material 9x12 inch sheet compared to around $5 for the same at any outlet.

 

[Anonymous User]

Attila,

I have been in sales for many, many years, sales management lately for quite a few years as well. I have sold cars, signs, home improvements, you name it. I have a wall full of sales awards, trophies, plaques, certificates, diplomas, and other such dust collectors, all pertaining to sales. I train people how to sell, how to make a very good living doing so, and I am good at it.

Trust me when I say that price has absolutely nothing to do with quality. Nothing at all. Something is worth exactly what the highest bidder will pay for it, nothing more, nothing less. What decides what someone will pay? Perceived value. That's it, nothing more, that is why we sell the sizzle, not the steak, the image, not the car.

Sure, in your scenario you invent a seller who would put the highest price on what he thought was the highest quality, in a perfect world, this may well be true. But what about the piece he marked down because he couldn't see anything in it? Was it really less in quality? Who is to say? The seller? The buyer? The artist that will be working with it? This is also assuming the seller has an eye for good stock, or even a clue about bonsai....hence great deals on great stock are not often found in specialized nurseries, people shopping there should well expect to pay a premium, but it is foolish to expect others to, especially when quality material can be found elsewhere, non-picked over, non-jacked up, and most times the owners or the other customers don't have a clue what they are seeing.


The funny thing about car sales was that almost every man that came in thought they were experts, not realizing that I sold more cars every week than they would buy in their life......it's not the deal they got that mattered to them, it was the deal they think they got.

So, if you and others think you are getting something special by spending more money, by all means, enjoy yourselves, hell buy two.


But please don't expect me to buy that sizzle.



Will

 

[Vance Wood]

... a knowledgeable response Vance is: As soon as you attach "bonsai" to anything that is sold, the price rises exponentially.

I pay $0.89 for my screening material 9x12 inch sheet compared to around $5 for the same at any outlet.

I'm sorry Rick, you dissapoint me. You answer like someone who is interested only in wining an argument and not the truth.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Vance don't start a Will on me.

As soon as someone attaches the word bonsai to anything, the price rises exponentially, regardless of what that article is.

 

[FourMileMarc]

Why do these threads get so much more attention than what the point of this forum should be all about, growing and training bonsai trees. It is almost like the title bonsai nut is just a catalyst for a fight forum. I expect this from forums like surfer mag or rocketpropelledgrenade.com but common this is a bonsai forum. I though that this was a mellow, zen kind of thing. Kind of reminds me of here in Santa Cruz with all the "mellow" hippiecrits. You know the ones that get in fist fights at the anti war demonstrations.

To the moderators: You guys should just set up a fight section and move everything their when fights break out and leave the rest of the sections for what they were intended for. This website seems to be quickly turning into the likes of BT and that is probably because some of the instigators are here now because of their banning over their.

Lets just state our opinion and move on.

 

[Attila Soos]

Sure, in your scenario you invent a seller who would put the highest price on what he thought was the highest quality, in a perfect world, this may well be true. But what about the piece he marked down because he couldn't see anything in it?

Will,

I don't have to invent a seller like that. The case that was brought up here is the last GSBF convention, and it's sellers. We are talking about individuals with a certain level of sophistication, who understand bonsai. This was a room that had about 50 sellers, and thousands of trees. This is not an imaginary scenario.

Here is how you could approach this study of relationship price vs. quality:

First separate the broad-leaved from conifers.
Second, divide the trees in 3 sizes: shohin, medium, and large.

Now take one population from this: for example, the medium-sized broad-leaved trees.
Divide them in price categories: a) $0 - $200 b) $201 - $400 c) $401 - $600 d) $601 - and above.
As the second step, rate each tree quality from 1 to 10. The highest quality tree gets a 10, the lowest gets a 1.

Do you think that there would be absolutely no correlation between the Quality score (1 to 10) and the categories (a, b, c, d), if we used 3 judges (take 3 top bonsai artists from that room). I am talking about statistical correlation, meaning average numbers, and I do not mean the exceptions. I am sure that a quality that receives a score of 5, could belong either to group b) or group c). There is no black and white in bonsai.

But don't you think that the top quality scorese would belong in average to the higher price categories and the lowest scores would be in the lower prices?

I can't believe that you are serious? If what you say was true, than all those who paid $1000 for an old white pine are stupid, since they could have bought the same tree from another vendor for $50. And you should tell Jim Gremel that he is dreaming, if he tries to sell his better Altlas Cedar bonsai for a higher price, since quality and price have nothing to do with each other.

I repeat that this was not an imaginary, perfect world. This was a real bonsai market.

Will, I really don't understand your logic that price has nothing to do with quality.

 

[Attila Soos]

How much do you suspect these two trees to sell for in a bonsai nursery? How much do you suspect these two trees to sell for in a Mom and Pop Nursery? I expect the answers to honest because I plan on being honest with my reply, but I do hope to get a few knowledgeable responses.

I expect that the trees sold in bonsai nursery are priced higher than the trees sold in a plant nursery. The reason is simple: trees in bonsai nurseries have extra work done on them. They are root-pruned, top-pruned, and they go thought a selection process where you separate higher quality trees from lower quality ones. In one word, there is a lot of work done on them, compared to a tree nursery where there is absolutely no work done.

On the other hand, if a bonsai retailer buys a plant from a regular nursery and marks it up for no other reason than the fact that this is a bonsai nursery, the vendor is unethical and dishonest. The only reason that a vendor marks up something, is either that he does work on the tree, or that the tree has some great bonsai qualities that the regular nursery vendor did not recognize. Remember that a normal tree nursery vendor doesn't price a tree based on "bonsai qualities", but based on "nursery qualities", which are quite different.

 

[Rick Moquin]

On the other hand, if a bonsai retailer buys a plant from a regular nursery and marks it up for no other reason than the fact that this is a bonsai nursery, the vendor is unethical and dishonest

.. in the case of trees I support your argument, but in the example above (screens) why such a mark up? Not every vendor out there (bonsai or otherwise) are always ethical. The price I paid for screening material was at a retail price, an ethical vendor can still acquire this screening material at retail prices if you wish, mark it up for his troubles, make a profit, and still sell it at a more reasonable price, than if it was called "bonsai screen". Another example would be "bonsai fertilizer", and I'm sure there are many more examples where price has been dictated by the "bonsai industry" so to speak.

 

[Attila Soos]

No doubt, and the "mallsai industry" is a good example of this, where both the trees and bonsai supplies are sold at questionable prices. But I would rather talk about the ethical businesses, since the cheaters are not the norm but the exception in any business.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I hear you Attila and when talking stock there is indeed very little correlation between the "mallsai" industry and ethical behaviour.

However, bonsai supply outlets, are extremely pricey when it comes to sundry items, pick anyone of your choosing. Is there really a need for that, or are we just off setting overhead cost of maintaining bonsai stock. Someone that didn't have stock to maintain could be sitting on a little gold mine selling bonsai supplies at reasonable cost, don't you think? Once word got around, in similar fashion as bonsai nurseries.

The same bonsai screen I was discussing earlier would run me about $8-10 by the time I got it here.

 

[Anonymous User]

This website seems to be quickly turning into the likes of BT and that is probably because some of the instigators are here now because of their banning over their.

Interesting opinion from someone who hasn't bothered to engage in the discussion at all and who only posted to condemn it. I am the only one here from BT that was banned from there over two years ago, so use my name, don't hide behind innuendos.

Why does this crap happen here? Simply because it is allowed to happen, it never happens at AoB, KoB, IBC, etc......

The real question is why so many people from BT are here, could it be that the beginner teaching beginner mentality there has failed? Could it be that it will follow in the tracks of BC? Could it be they are attempting the exact same crap they did at BT and BC (yes same 4 or 5 people)? Who knows, I personally don't care.


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

I can't believe that you are serious? If what you say was true, than all those who paid $1000 for an old white pine are stupid, since they could have bought the same tree from another vendor for $50. And you should tell Jim Gremel that he is dreaming, if he tries to sell his better Altlas Cedar bonsai for a higher price, since quality and price have nothing to do with each other.


Will, I really don't understand your logic that price has nothing to do with quality.

Dead serious, I can't believe you can't grasp the simple nature of what I am saying. You are trying why too hard to read more into my words than is there.

I said and defended my simple point, price has nothing to do with quality.

High prices does not automatically assure quality. Low prices does not automatically assure crap. Location does not assure quality or crap. The concept is easy to understand.

Take your bonsai nursery, real imagined, whatever....I'll promise you there are a least a few pieces overpriced and a few under-priced. I'll promise you there is great stuff and that there is crap. The exact same things could be said about a traditional nursery, the ratios may be different, but the facts don't change.

Now, let's say you and I went shopping for quality stock, you in your bonsai nurseries and I in traditional nurseries. Our goal is to find one single piece of quality stock that a respectable bonsai can be made out of. A month later we meet, both with our piece of stock.....

But first, what did we look for? Price? Location? Big name grower attached?

No, hopefully we both just looked at stock, we looked at trunks, branching, roots, foliage, species, bark, all the usual things considered when selecting a piece of quality stock.

At the end we both have a piece of stock that we feel is high quality, stock that offers everything we need for a blank canvas, to create a respectable bonsai with.

At the end, does it matter who paid what? Does it matter where it was bought?

No, all that matters is the quality of the stock, price paid and location purchased has absolutely nothing to do with stock selection and they certainly have nothing to do with the quality of the stock.

However, if you want to deviate away from the original subject and talk about pre-styled, almost completed, somebody else has done all the ready work bonsai, then one will pay for all that time, talent, and effort. But again, a high price will not assure quality.

Your example of Jim Gremel is narrow, as is the white pine example. Just because something has a high price does not mean it has quality. It may well have high quality and a price to go with it, but remember ebay is full of high priced bonsai that are not of high quality, does the high price mean they are good? Should the buyers be proud of the high priced bonsai they shelled out big bucks for? By your statements, since they have high prices, they must be of high quality as well.

And again, if Jim sold his Cedar for 100 bucks, does that take away from the quality? Hardly, it just means someone got a great deal.

Think about it,




Will