Do all Bonsai need to be large amazing specimens to be worthy of our time? Is it ok to appreciate a small humble tree that expresses the mood of a season? Does care, respect and Artistry shine through? Is working on trees a pleasure or a chore? If a Bonsai were taken from you, would you consider it a theft or a kidnapping? Sorry for rambling Dudes...
Do you buy raw bonsai stock from traditional garden center retailers?
- Thread starter Bonsai Nut
- Start date
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I appreciate your position and if I had your options available to me concerning access to really fine Yamadori I would assume the same position. I do not, and most I know do not either. The good Yamadori available in the USA are in the West and in the Mountains, for me this over a thousand miles to go collecting. There are some areas in the East, East of the Mississippi that you can argue favorably for collecting if you can get around government and land ownership but again, for me, I am looking at a days drive to and a days drive back, something I am not looking to do while I still have to work for a living.
I don't mean it to seem that I feel that the garden center nursery is the only choice, or the best choice, but others have made it seem that it is the worse choice and this simply is not true. The worst choice is the worst choice, if you do not yet know what you are looking for in shape form and species you are likely to make bad choices regardless if you drove two-thousand miles on a dig, two-hundred miles to a convention offering prebonsai or two-miles to a garden center.
We can advocate getting the good stuff all day long, but if we don't teach what is considered good stuff, or teach what to do with it, the difference between a two-thousand dollar Yamadori and a twenty-dollar nursery tree is an $1,880.00 difference in the price of kindleing or compost.
Rick Moquin
Omono
...and unfortunately that is the case for many, and hence why it is done that way.
In your particular case, because of your collection, it is only reasonable to continue this avenue.
AndyWilson
Mame
The one thing most of you are forgetting is that sometimes it is the only way to get a particular species. While i love my natives i really enjoy working on Chinese elms and Maples (both Japanese and Chinese)
How on earth must i get these species if not for the nursery? There are no wild specimens to collect and certainly no good bonsai nuserys supplying them, i am afraid it is the only way for me to get fopreign stock. Then plonk them in my growing bed and leave em for many years...
How on earth must i get these species if not for the nursery? There are no wild specimens to collect and certainly no good bonsai nuserys supplying them, i am afraid it is the only way for me to get fopreign stock. Then plonk them in my growing bed and leave em for many years...
bonsai barry
Omono
Just a quote from the book, Bonsai Art: Europe I
"Marc (Noelanders) began to work with container grown nursery material and became known as a specialist in this area."
Photos include four photos identified as nursery grown and two photos as yamadori.
"Marc (Noelanders) began to work with container grown nursery material and became known as a specialist in this area."
Photos include four photos identified as nursery grown and two photos as yamadori.
Ashbarns
Mame
I opted for #4 but it has to be exceptional. The tangled roots situation does not bother me as that comes with the territory. It is the trunk and branch/foliage that would attract me to the subject. Roots are fixable over a period of time and should pose little problem to the experienced bonsaist.
Ash
Ash
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This too is something I agree with.
However over the last twenty or so years if I adhered to this philosophy I would have added not one single tree to my list of victims. There are two things that you can expect with Yamadori, they should be old, and will be expensive. There is one thing that you can hope for but not necessarily encounter: They should be worth what they are being sold for, at least in your eyes, as a future bonsai. This means that you should be able to visualize a future for this tree and not just the hope that Old and Expensive will mean a good bonsai one day. So many people get sucked into buying something because of the hype and not because of the type.
darrellw
Mame
I went for the first choice, with the disclaimer that here in the Pacific NW you can actually find some collected trees in retail garden centers (mostly (Sub-)Alpine Fir and Lodgepole Pine). I still only pick up an odd tree or two from a garden center anymore, though about 50% of my trees have their origins there.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
The one thing missing from this thread is a benchmark. Many have made good points for both arguments, but I feel that those making arguments for their selections are making them for their opinions on what the wish to have as a final look in a tree.
It will be impossible for Walter Pall to go to a garden center to obtain what he needs. Vance Wood has many things that prohibit him from obtaining the kind of material that he might like to work with. Both make Mugo pines as bonsai. Mr. Woods trees will never look like those of Mr. Palls. Why? They just won't have the bark nor the character of a tree taken from the Alps. Trunks just do not grow that way on nursery trees. Should Mr. Wood give up on mugo pine just because he can't collect them? I don't think so. I think to argue that mugo's from the nursery can compare to mugo's from the mountains is pointless.
So what is the benchmark from Mr Woods point of view?
What would be the benchmark from Mr. Pall's point of view?
Each uses the best in their opinion of what they can obtain. Neither are right or wrong. They each argue for different points of view based on the benchmark they know they can achieve with what they can obtain. We each argue for different points of view. It comes down to something as small as choosing how you wish your collection to look. Put your money into better stock and you will have better trees. Better stock comes at larger prices,....and yes I understand the variables. If your a decent artisan and you wish to have trees like Walter Pall then you better be starting out with stock as good as that he uses. That just seems so easy to me.
BTW, for this thread anyway, talent has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.
Cheers, Al
It will be impossible for Walter Pall to go to a garden center to obtain what he needs. Vance Wood has many things that prohibit him from obtaining the kind of material that he might like to work with. Both make Mugo pines as bonsai. Mr. Woods trees will never look like those of Mr. Palls. Why? They just won't have the bark nor the character of a tree taken from the Alps. Trunks just do not grow that way on nursery trees. Should Mr. Wood give up on mugo pine just because he can't collect them? I don't think so. I think to argue that mugo's from the nursery can compare to mugo's from the mountains is pointless.
So what is the benchmark from Mr Woods point of view?
What would be the benchmark from Mr. Pall's point of view?
Each uses the best in their opinion of what they can obtain. Neither are right or wrong. They each argue for different points of view based on the benchmark they know they can achieve with what they can obtain. We each argue for different points of view. It comes down to something as small as choosing how you wish your collection to look. Put your money into better stock and you will have better trees. Better stock comes at larger prices,....and yes I understand the variables. If your a decent artisan and you wish to have trees like Walter Pall then you better be starting out with stock as good as that he uses. That just seems so easy to me.
BTW, for this thread anyway, talent has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.
Cheers, Al
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Right on both points for the most part, but wait till spring and I post a few things you have not seen before. I think the argument about bark might be hard to defend.
Rick Moquin
Omono
Al,
I agree with you 100% with the exception of your closing arguments. Is it wrong to practice bonsai at a level which is not comparable to popular opinion? Does one need approval from the community to practice bonsai?
Anonymous User
Banned
What is missing is the realization that most of the opinions posted here assume that a quality bonsai can only be made from material showing the characteristics of collected stock. That is to say that a tree must show signs of environmental stress, near death experiences, twisted and guarled trunks in order to be successful as art. This is not true.
It may well be true that many of the bonsai we admire show such, but it is certainly not a requirement for a bonsai to be successful artistically. Besides, even if they are needed, such geniuses as Kimura and Pall have shown, most of these things can be duplicated in the studio, if they are lacking. Techniques such as trunk splitting, burning, carving, grafting on deadwood, are common practice in the art.
Below are a few examples of excellent bonsai that do not show the traits talked about here that are claimed to be found only in collected stock. For those of you that think great bonsai can not be created from anything but collected stock, may I suggest taking a look at William Valavanis's gallery.
Five Needle Pine (Pinus parviflora) by Qingquan Zhao
Cherry 'Hally Joluviette' by Christine Hayward
Norway spruce (Picea abies) by Walter Pall
Larix laricina root-over-rock by Nick Lenz
Talent has everything to do with this thread......you can throw all the money you want to at stock, without the talent to select good stock, regardless of the price, you won't get it, period. Of course you could always take somebody else's word for what is good stock, or not, but that does you no good at all when it comes time to actually work on it.
You can throw all the money you want at stock, even pre-bonsai, even bonsai, but in the end, without the talent to actually use what you have purchased, all you will have is bonsai grown or designed by somebody else and most likely that are in dire need of proper maintenance.
You wouldn't believe me if I told you all the times I have heard a top ranked artist complain in confidence about how trees they have sold look like crap now. People knew they were great trees, people were willing to part with large sums to purchase them, and in the end they had neither the skills or talent to maintain them, let alone take them beyond what the original artist envisioned.
This is the environment thoughts like yours create, buy the best, spend the most, show it off....hogwash.
You will not have better trees if you put money into better stock unless you have the talent to use that stock, in fact all you would have is less money. With talent, you'll find the stock that you can work with, count on it.
Buy what you see something in, forget the price, forget where you purchase it, look for the vision within the tree, look for great material and get it. Don't let anyone tell you what you should be buying and for what price, instead learn how to recognize good stock and learn on it. Learn to work roots, to develop stock, learn the techniques that others skip by buying pre-bonsai, you'll be a better artist in the end because of it. Don't skip the steps, there are no shortcuts in bonsai.
Will
Asus101
Yamadori
One reason I will not buy such a tree from such an artist till i have the skill to maintain or take it further
onthefringe
Sapling
This was in response to Rick Moquin question do we need approval from the bonsai community?
I may be answering out of turn or maybe this was just a question to ponder.
It would seem to me there are those who chose to do things out of the norm. And just like in many social engagements where culture plays a part of human behavior those who tend to step out of line appear to be outcast. They become deviants by definition. They deviate and therefore are often treated as deviants.
The question is or maybe becomes, can you appreciate what they do or that they do what they do?
I may be deviating abit now myself but when things like this come up I think to a historical tree I came acrossed online but was fascinated by for its historic merits and reflection of changing values. The daemyo oak (Maybe in the pacific rim collection, out west anyway) that would by all rights be and ugly stick to thrown into the compost heap because it doesn't "fit". But to the one who began training it generations ago it had meaning and value.
Just like on a fresh thread about Acer Rubrum. Many will say it's a waste of time. But to those who remember a big red maple at granmas house where they would run through piles of leaves it may have tremendous meaning and value.
Why not? Have fun.
Oh by the way I chose rarely find a good one. But it doesn't stop me from looking!
I may be answering out of turn or maybe this was just a question to ponder.
It would seem to me there are those who chose to do things out of the norm. And just like in many social engagements where culture plays a part of human behavior those who tend to step out of line appear to be outcast. They become deviants by definition. They deviate and therefore are often treated as deviants.
The question is or maybe becomes, can you appreciate what they do or that they do what they do?
I may be deviating abit now myself but when things like this come up I think to a historical tree I came acrossed online but was fascinated by for its historic merits and reflection of changing values. The daemyo oak (Maybe in the pacific rim collection, out west anyway) that would by all rights be and ugly stick to thrown into the compost heap because it doesn't "fit". But to the one who began training it generations ago it had meaning and value.
Just like on a fresh thread about Acer Rubrum. Many will say it's a waste of time. But to those who remember a big red maple at granmas house where they would run through piles of leaves it may have tremendous meaning and value.
Why not? Have fun.
Oh by the way I chose rarely find a good one. But it doesn't stop me from looking!
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Rick Moquin
Omono
It was indeed just a question to ponder.
In the context that is was applied, a response to Al's post, the question had merit. I supported the entire statement with the exception of the last few words. Not everyone is doing bonsai to have collections that compare or beat Walter's.
I admire Walter's trees some of them not all, and Walter says that is alright, because bonsai is indeed subjective. Walter was a deviant when he came on the scene. He shrugged the flack and carried on, today he is admired for what he does, it has indeed become acceptable and Walter will be the first one to admit he is not doing bonsai, he designs trees, and that is alright.
Chris Johnston
Omono
Or from collected trees that show none of the above but have wonderful grace or beautiful flowers. Or from prebonsai stock with the possibilities of all of the above, or something else.
Chris Johnston
Omono
I don't think this thread really has anything to do with "talent" and we don't want it to morph into that discussion.
Chris Johnston
Omono
I wonder what techniques you think can be skipped by working with pre-bonsai. I will tell you, that they rarely have ideal nebari or completely untangled roots. They rarely have branches where you want them. There are no techniques that may be "skipped" by using prebonsai. What is skipped is the years of work that someone else has already done on the tree. With collected trees, what is "skipped" is the decades or centuries that mother nature has spent sculpting the tree.
Anonymous User
Banned
Yes it does Chris, namely having the talent to recognize quality stock in the first place, also the talent to be able to fully use the material selected, without it, you may as well be working with dandelions.
Will
Anonymous User
Banned
Chris, for the sake of saving a thousand replies to your many posts quoting myself, can you sum up your argument in a few words? If you disagree at all.
I have said price or location does not automatically dictate quality. I have not said people should work with garbage, that traditional nurseries are superior, nor that any one place should be the only place to shop.
Please let us know what exactly you disagree with so I can address it and move on to other, not so obvious, subjects.
Will
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