Display for critique.

[Ang3lfir3]

So I'd have to end with a question. Do i want to strictly follow what is done in japan as if I was a resident, or is it permissible to live somewhere else in the world and make a display for our enjoyment that reflects what the season is in our homeland?

I actually think it is imperative that you focus on the culture of country in which you are displaying ... it is only possible to create the proper sets of vision and emotion by focusing on those things that have meaning to the viewers ... that doesn't mean one should change the methods (ie use of scrolls etc) I believe it just means changing some of the subject matter.... Vic and I were talking about this the other day and the specific example of a Koi jumping up a waterfall having meaning for "courage" ... this specific examples means nothing to us here in the US... however... you could easily use a Salmon in the same example and it would give a similar emotional feeling to almost any American and definitely one in the PNW (it might also remind them of the smell of rotting fish but that is a wholey different problem) ...

* use the japanese word to help those that may want to know the word while immediately discribing in english what it means......so that those who may not want to look it up are conveniently provided with it's meaning. I have taught KOI for 40 years and in my seminars slip up on occassion by using a japanese word without explaination, completely forgetfull that the majority have no idea what i'm talking about. I'm always embarassed when i'm stopped and asked and i do apologize and thank the individual for speaking up. I really do want to learn this subject from a japanese foundation so i can use that to translate into my own world. My hope is that I have expressed myself in a way so that no one is offended and we are better able to grasp what is being shared by someone who also has a lifetime of knowledge.

not to take away from this thread... and hopefully just a minor diversion ... this comment reminded me of why we try not to use the Japanese words for things at Elandan ... this makes it easier to communicate with an American audience and educate on the core concepts and less on whether we used some other cultures name for something ... (not all things are literal of course so sometimes the Japanese only words are the only correct words) ..... ne ways not trying to derail I just think Dick hit on a really good topic

 

[rockm]

"not to take away from this thread... and hopefully just a minor diversion ... this comment reminded me of why we try not to use the Japanese words for things at Elandan ... this makes it easier to communicate with an American audience and educate on the core concepts and less on whether we used some other cultures name for something ... (not all things are literal of course so sometimes the Japanese only words are the only correct words) ..... ne ways not trying to derail I just think Dick hit on a really good topic "

I think this is extremely pertinent to the discussion of display. It is, perhaps, the central point.

Japanese display is a jumping off point for Westerners.

The vast majority of allegorical symbolism used in Japanese display is completely beside the point for us. The techniques, however, are pretty universal. By all that, I mean, individual symbolism, like the leaping carp, seasonal phases of the moon (which have specific meaning in Japan), visual references like falling cherry blossoms, etc. can have little or no meaning to the western viewer, or worse, they have an opposite interpretation.

The emotions behind those images, however, are what counts. Being able to translate emotions in display using Western images and symbolism is the trick, I think, that display here demands. Doing it as tastefully, effectively and subtlely as the Japanese do is the challenge.

I know the Japanophiles here might take some issue with that but, there you go...

 

[Ron Dennis]

These display threads are very interesting!

Going along with other comments, one thing which really would help me is the correct (or at least as close as our American English will permit) pronunciation of the Japanese word. As I read more trying to understand so much of this art, I hesitate to discuss with others whom I think probably know the correct pronunciation. Just thinking out loud . . .

 

[Klytus]

Oh,i had assumed these fronds were wind blown reeds,i see now that they were perhaps representative of rice.

My attempt at scrolls would be limited to soaking off a label from a bottle of Sake and using that,maybe this display is best seen after drinking the stuff,the artist's intent?

 

[Klytus]

I just had a swig of an old bottle of Sake,pre-Fukushima,and the label tells me it does not improve with age.
It's been knocking about for years but still manages to tell me the Satsuki is fugly and as such sticks out like a sore thumb.
Some of the remainder went into a milk pan of boiling prawns and did them no harm.

 

[tmmason10]

I'll play, but the only knowledge of display I have is from these great threads by Al. Keep them coming, they are very interesting and great learning experiences.

I think the tree needs to be on the other side of the display. I don't know what the scroll depicts, but the sun looks hazy to me which I think means autumn, but could very well mean to me a hot and humid day of summer. I actually don't care for one bit of the accent plant, including its pot. Another plant in a shorter pot would look better. Though, I don't mind the use of another stand myself.

Either way, the display can definitely be improved. But if I'm honest, it's better than any scene I can put together so props for them having a tree displayed.

 

[rockm]

What about including a spring hare instead of the accent plant?

http://www.madeinbronze.co.uk/hares.html

 

[Klytus]

Or even an Emu,though an antique bronze would raise the bar.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=260&catid=7&subcatid=40

 

[Attila Soos]

The vast majority of allegorical symbolism used in Japanese display is completely beside the point for us. The techniques, however, are pretty universal. By all that, I mean, individual symbolism, like the leaping carp, seasonal phases of the moon (which have specific meaning in Japan), visual references like falling cherry blossoms, etc. can have little or no meaning to the western viewer, or worse, they have an opposite interpretation.

Great observations.
A few weeks ago I finished reading a book called "Unbroken" - the story of Louis Zamperini, a top American athlete and WWII veteran, who spent years in Japanese prisoner-of-war camps. He was tortured and beaten on a daily basis, by the Japanese guards.

I remember in the book, the author noting that the cultural differences between the Japanese and the Americans were so vast, that this lead to constant conflicts and misunderstandings. Even the basic human gestures were different, which caused infinite frustration and violence.

So, yes, if we are trying to correctly imitate the use of Japanese symbolism, we are in an uphill battle. And even if eventually learn some of it, the emotional resonance will not be there for us. We will not feel the same way a Japanese person would, when looking at the same thing. If so, what's the point?

We can use the same framework as the Japanese do, such as the importance of the seasons in a display, the aesthetic principals of visual displays (movement, visual weight, etc), as well as following some of the laws of nature, but we have to do it, using our own symbolism and visual language. In that sense, I don't really care what the jumping carp means for an Asian person. For me, it's just a beautiful jumping carp.

 

[Klytus]

He's a cunning fishy,i have a favourite Comet who Jumps,he was raised from an egg.

They say the opinions of those who hatch from an egg do not count but i'm not so sure.

 

[Attila Soos]

He's a cunning fishy,i have a favourite Comet who Jumps,he was raised from an egg.

They say the opinions of those who hatch from an egg do not count but i'm not so sure.

Get out of the city, Klytus. You are a nut-job.

Actually I have a Comet that grew to almost a foot long. I need a new tank to house it, since my kids told me that the frying pan is not an option.

 

[Klytus]

I thought about mentioning he can often be seen breaching but he's too small for that.

He does enjoy it though,it's like Weee! and then plop before deftly swishing back to his pond mates in the depths.

I have Koi,one of which has rather poor eyesight,it's like no-that's a bubble and i find myself pointing out the floating clusters of food.

He likes to tear at the filamentous algae growing on the pond sides but since i put in a new liner earlier this year and the strands have not yet become pronounced he is limited to looking wistfully at the areas it seems likely they would be growing.

 

[dick benbow]

I was kinda weirded out reading the last page or so....thought i had cliqued on a bonsai chatline and had to double check to make sure I hadn't clicked on something like the pond forum which I contribute my decades of Koi knowledge on. LOL talk about jumping carp, a few of mine are in the 30 inch bracquet and when they jump you know about it

 

[Klytus]

Very nice and disease free.

I guess the larger sizes sploosh rather than plop.

My folks carp became interested in leaping but instead of Dragons it was more to their doom.

I'll wager you dont see many leaping carp scrolls featuring netting,nor wading Heron catching leaping Koi.

It could however be art?