Discussion about carving pines

[Paradox]

Ive seen a few jins on pines, but has anyone seen or done extensive carving on a pine?

If you have pictures, Id love to see them.

Pines have softer wood, so if people do carve pines, what considerations must be made?
Should some kind of wood preservative be used to prevent rot/deterioration?

The reason I ask is because I have a scots pine I am developing from nursery stock. I am slowly reducing the octopus of branches to one main trunk. Once that is done and the tree is ready, I feel the best way to deal with the resulting large scars on the trunk would be to carve if feasible. An octopus ofof jins would not look good. It will be a few more years before the tree is ready for this but as I was thinking about its future I figured I could start investigating it now.

Please discuss.

 

[Poink88]

Pine wood like juniper are full of sap that protects them from rot. Applying lime sulfur and wood hardener adds another layer of protection.

 

[Dav4]

I've jinned lots of pine branches over the years. Pine wood takes well to the fiber pulling technique, but only when fresh...dried wood is more amenable to power tools. Typically, I'll strip the bark, pull fiber to create texture and movement. When I'm happy with it, I'll take a micro torch and char the surface...this dries the wood out, as well as adding another layer of texture as some of the softer wood within the grain gets burnt away. It also helps to preserve the wood. I'll try to get some pics from my JRP soon.

 

[yenling83]

Here's my opinion, which is not correct, just my opinion: *Rant Warning*

A very important thing to consider about whether a tree should have dead wood or not is where and under what types of situations it grows in nature. When you go up into the high mountains you see pines that are affected by years and years of snow and harsh conditions. Many of these high mountain trees(Ponderosa, White Pine, etc.) have beautiful jin and shari. This deadwood seems to become very hardened over the years and will last for a very long time. It's challenging to replicate the jin and shari work of mother nature. We likely cannot create deadwood that will be as hard as if the tree was collected from nature. However, wood hardener and lime sulfur like Point suggested works well. I've also see a top pro in Japan dip his jin and shari in a large cup of white pine melted sap(dunno if this does much) apparently to harden it up(translation could have been off and I need to try).


Along the coast or inland a bit, pines do not get nearly as beat up. They are allowed to grow without constantly battling the elements. In general these types of pines (Monterey, Black pine, etc.) don't have as much dead wood. They are not designed like high mountain pines to take years of abuse. This is also why a jin on a Black Pine will last, but just not as long as a White Pine. IMO Bonsai is about telling a story, so personally I like telling the story of a High Mountain Pine with Dead wood and a lower elevation growing pine without. However, ultimately it's up to the artist to determine what they like, there are no rules in Bonsai-just guidelines that are meant to be broken by those who understand the guidelines.

 

[Paradox]

I googled "Carving Pine Bonsai" and came up with a bunch of images so clearly it is done more often than I originally thought.

Any particular brand of wood hardener people prefer?

 

[Adair M]

May I add to yenling's excellent post that up in the high mountains, it's very dry air. Deadwood dries out, is sun bleached by very intense uva and uvb rays. Molds and mildews do not survive there. Too dry. Too much sun.

Along the coast, it's humid. The air is damp. Deadwood is softer because of the dampness. Molds, mildews, and insects work on the deadwood. It doesn't last long.

I have a Ponderosa Pine. It has wonderful deadwood. Which I can see is slowly being softened up and rotting away, in spite of my efforts to preserve it. We have high humidity here in Georgia.

 

[Eric Schrader]

I'll also second Jeremiah's post.

I'd only add that in Japan black pines are most valued for the age that they exhibit in the bark plates that develop with extensive consistent training. Removing the bark is not done normally because the bark is the most beautiful feature of the tree. (Peter Tea covered this in a blog post.)

By contrast, white pine have much less interesting bark, and are much more frequently shown with deadwood features. Here's one of my favorites from Jonas' blog:

http://dupuich.smugmug.com/Japan-2014/Bonsai-pics/Shiino/i-GmZWj6w

 

[jeanluc83]

In one of Ryan Neil's demos he talks about the difference in aesthetics of pines vs. junipers.

Pines are valued for their antiquity. The design should reinforce this image. The wood of pines generally soft so it decays and erodes rather quickly in nature. An ancient pine will show dead wood but in small quantities.

Junipers on the other hand are valued for the struggle between life and death. Huge expanses of dead wood with very small live vanes are highly sought after. The wood its self is generally more decay resistant.

There are certainly exceptions based on location and elevation but I thought this was interesting.

 

[Paradox]

Seems as though people are trying to discourage carving this pine. The question is not if, or whether it should be done. The question is has anyone done it and what should I know in order to accomplish it with the best results?

If the tree survives the process to get there, I am going to have a very large scar that wont heal in my lifetime. One side of the tree is going to be cut off essentially and there will not be bark there anyway. So I might as well make something that looks nicer than a huge scar by carving it. I think I can make it work with the design. It will be far better than 8 straight jins sticking up on the side of the main trunk.

None of you have seen the tree in question and clearly there are people that have done extensive carving on pines. So instead of lecturing me on whether a tree should or should not have deadwood, how about more discussion about the practicalities of doing it?

 

[Poink88]

Can you post pics?

 

[Poink88]

Sidiao (Cheng,Cheng-Kung) works with & carves pines.

http://www.sidiao.com/contents_e.htm

http://www.sidiao.com/index_e.htm

 

[Paradox]

Eric, thanks for posting the pic of the white pine. That is a great example.

*Edit* Also thanks Dario.

 

[Poink88]

Seems as though people are trying to discourage carving this pine. If the tree survives the process to get there, I am going to have a very large scar that wont heal in my lifetime. One side of the tree is going to be cut off essentially and there will not be bark there anyway. So I might as well make something that looks nicer than a huge scar by carving it. I think I can make it work with the design. It will be far better than 8 straight jins sticking up on the side of the main trunk.

None of you have seen the tree in question and clearly, there are people that have done extensive carving on pines. So instead of lecturing me on whether a tree should or should not have deadwood, how about more discussion about the practicalities of doing it?

Note that lots of people also say/claim broad leaf shouldn't have deadwood...well I see lots of it in nature and lots of great bonsai with them. There is a difference on how they age so just know that. Same applies between pines and juni.

Ask Cheng-Cheng-Kung, Kevin Willson, Graham Potter, etc. They all carve broad leaf and pines.

 

[Paradox]

Can you post pics?

I can but I prefer not to for reasons Im sure you understand.

You mentioned wood hardner? Which do you prefer/recommend?


There is a scrub oak I see every day on my way to work with a hollowed out trunk. It is still growing and its a pretty cool tree. I keep meaning to stop and take pictures of it but I keep forgetting.

 

[coh]

I appreciate the comments about aesthetics of deadwood on different species, including how it is viewed in Japan. That said, I'm not in Japan, and feel no need to adhere to their "rules" for all my trees.

Would also like to hear about specific carving experiences on pines and what kinds of wood hardeners people use. I know that Kathy Shaner recommended something called "p-c petrifier" at a demonstration but I've never used it. Would one use the same type on all trees, or are different types better for hardwood vs softwood trees?

 

[Poink88]

Broad leaf and pine deadwood may not last as long as juni but it all boils down to you. If they last 5 or 10 years, is that a waste of your efforts? It is about ROI (return on investment). For me, as long as I enjoyed it, it is worth it....even just for a few months!

 

[Poink88]

Would also like to hear about specific carving experiences on pines and what kinds of wood hardeners people use. I know that Kathy Shaner recommended something called "p-c petrifier" at a demonstration but I've never used it. Would one use the same type on all trees, or are different types better for hardwood vs softwood trees?

I heard some use melted pine resin. I use PC Petrifier (yeah got that from Kathy) on everything now but have not done pines yet.