Different types of sphagnum moss

Colorado

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I always use long fingered sphagnum you find at Home Depot then grind it up w a mesh mixed with real moss to use for top dressing , worked well for me to grow moss as an alternative to picking moss then placing on top of soil

I use the Home Depot sphagnum also. It’s dirt cheap and does the job.

I’ve used the New Zealand variety before and it worked well too, but was about 10x as expensive.

As Leo pointed out above, the New Zealand variety lasted much longer before breaking down. But if you’re mixing with green moss for top dressing anyway, then it doesn’t really matter because the green moss will eventually take over the surface.
 

AJL

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Ive never even heard of moss peat. if something is working for you, its a good component or mix or whatever. no harm in experimenting with pure kanuma, whenever i go to the nurseries here, the satsukis are usually in pure kanuma, but Ken at windbanks bonsai in surrey, top dresses with the s moss.
Moss peat is still sold in many garden centres in UK eg Clover Irish Moss Peat though the horticultural trade is being encouraged to use peat free alternatives
Sphagnum peat ( moss peat) has a low natural pH whereas sedge peat is more variable depending on the water pH in which it was deposited. Most commercial composts will be adjusted to provide a fairly neutral pH suitable for a wide range of uses. Ericaceous composts are formulated from moss peat to be low pH ( acidic) . In pots and containers, ericaceous composts will provide acidic conditions
 

BobbyLane

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Moss peat is still sold in many garden centres in UK eg Clover Irish Moss Peat though the horticultural trade is being encouraged to use peat free alternatives
Sphagnum peat ( moss peat) has a low natural pH whereas sedge peat is more variable depending on the water pH in which it was deposited. Most commercial composts will be adjusted to provide a fairly neutral pH suitable for a wide range of uses. Ericaceous composts are formulated from moss peat to be low pH ( acidic) . In pots and containers, ericaceous composts will provide acidic conditions
im aware of peat. just never heard many people calling it moss peat. many nurseries pot the plants in peat because its cheaper, never really heard them calling it moss peat. learn something new everyday.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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I should say ive never seen sphag used in a mix for satsuki, kanuma yes. Ive only seen it used as a top dress on kanuma. kanuma does dry out particularly quickly.
Just read this…….. not the first time I’ve seen this

Wondering if you know this guy… . Paul Eslinger (sp). See minute 13:00 Third of 3 videos on mikbonsai. Only know him from this satsuki series. Since he’s from your side of the pond not sure where he fits in the bonsai bunch there? Also saw mention of him presenting in Sussex.

cheers
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Deep Sea Diver

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The description of how to pot Satsuki by @rockm above is exactly what Rick Garcia describes in his latest book. Use 100% kanuma, top dress with yamagoke moss. Yama= mountain so it is Japanese for mountain moss. Chopped sphagnum is not an ideal substitute, but will work in a pinch.
@Leo in N E Illinois

Have been wondering about this particular recommendation ever since I read his book. Then I recalled Rick Gracia’s Japanese Bonsai Master / mentor Suisho Nakayama writing in his book on bending etc mentioning to use 10-20% Yamagoke in the Kanuma media. Just checked Nakayama’s book and it is indeed there.. so wondering about this.

Haven’t used moss in my media myself recently, but contemplating it as the weather is only getting hotter.

Actually the first batch of azaleas we tried used Sphagnum, not blended like was recommended…were rootwashed so poorly they suffered and the small strands of Sphagnum were popping out all over.... The result was a mess mainly because of my own ignorance. It’s amazing any of the first trees survived. As it is, most of these look like someone purposefully beat them with a stick!

As for top dressing, based upon our efforts, I agree Yamagoke is clearly the best. Mixed with chopped long fiber NZ Sphagnum works very well too. It creates an interesting look to the resulting moss. Of course after a few months out here all-the other moss spores get into the top dressing and the result is even more interesting if they take.

Best
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Glaucus

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Ok touching upon kanuma vs peat once more...

No professional satsuki importer or grower that I know of uses peat most, moss peat, or sphagnum moss in their soil mixes.

Almost 100% of all plants in the rhododendron genus here in Europe are grown in peat moss. The only exceptions are bonsai people with their satsuki, who use kanuma.
I think the same is true for the US.

Doesn't do much for the roots, can become hydrophobic and/or mush that prematurely clogs drainage.

There is a big difference between freshly dried sphagnum and actual peat moss. I agree that I do not see the benefit of adding sphagnum moss to kanuma. The strings of sphagnum will become hydrophobic when they dry.
I think adding actual peat or coco coir or pine back to kanuma will work better. But I have never tried. But you need the stringly peat, not the milled form. If you add milled peat and kanuma, you need to use mostly peat and a little bit of kanuma. Otherwise, you will wash the peat out of the kanuma towards the bottom. And it will act like peat clogging up the kanuma rather than kanuma making the pear more airy.

I've bought satsuki from Rick Garcia and Dave Kreutz and also know of a grower who travels to Japan to work with satsuki masters there. I've seen their trees, none have anything but kanuma.
While sphagnum moss is locally available and mostly cheap, it's not really optimal for satsukis.

Satsuki are just like any other rhododendron species. They do well in peat. It is just the bonsai angle, with shallower pots, and with a substrate over soil mindset (rightly or wrongly), and the availablity of kanuma as being literal dirt and a literal waste product, that made it an ideal substrate for satsuki bonsai trees. For satsuki plants, peat works perfectly. I grow almost all my plants with either pure peat, a potting soil based on peat, eriocacious compost based on peat, and perlite. Recently, I added a small amount of pine bark chunks. Note, these are not bonsai. From my experience, plants in kanuma need more care, more fertilizer, more water, and are more prone to chlorosis. But this can be managed perfectly well with a more intense bonsai care regime, with more watering and a steady (dilute) fertilizer regime

I was a skeptic at first too about kanuma, but saw immediate improvement in my satsukis when I put them in it. I use it in a climate that is colder and hotter than yours. You would have no issues with it.
It also might be worth getting Rick's book. It is the most comprehensive English-language satsuki bonsai book published, from what I've seen. I have most of the others, none are nearly as good at explaining WHY some stuff works with satsukis and how to grow them.

There is no reason to be skeptical about kanuma soil for azalea bonsai. It is a tried and tested method which should work for most climates, as long as you combine it with a watering and fertilizer regime suitable for a substrate based approach.


But agreed that the most common Japanese use of moss is to surface pad the kanuma soil after a repot. And not so much as something you mix in. There are 50+ videos on Youtube of Japanese repotting satuski bonsai in kanuma. Some of them add moss on top. None mix moss through the kanuma. Doesn't mean it can't work. I think Callaham's book also suggests mixing in sphagnum moss with kanuma. But once you sphagnum dried up, you'd be better off without it. Though if you can keep the sphaghum moist all the time, it should be an improvement for dry climates.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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But agreed that the most common Japanese use of moss is to surface pad the kanuma soil after a repot. And not so much as something you mix in. There are 50+ videos on Youtube of Japanese repotting satuski bonsai in kanuma. Some of them add moss on top. None mix moss through the kanuma. Doesn't mean it can't work.
Yep...
I think Callaham's book also suggests mixing in sphagnum moss with kanuma. But once you sphagnum dried up, you'd be better off without it. Though if you can keep the sphaghum moist all the time, it should be an improvement for dry climates

I keep hearing this statement about once sphagnum or peat gets dried up it becomes hydrophobic and have to wonder. Its all over the forum...

Kind of like a legend... or more properly, a bad rerun on the television?

Let's examine the facts as I know it from repeated experience in my little backyard "laboratory"....

First... Kanuma resists water if it is left to dry completely out too. But once immersed in water it recovers. I tested it repeatedly

Second... Sphagnum also resists water if it is left to dry completely. But once immersed in water it recovers. I also tested it repeatedly.

(btw: Sphagnum and Yamagoke are used in Azalea bonsai media... maybe not universally, but it is used. Paul Eslinger in England showed how he preps and uses it. Nakayama, President of the Japanese Satsuki Assn recommended including it in media... and I've seen it recommended in other places. I actually use it for trees with weak areas in their nebari and pack it in those areas. Haven't put it in a media lately, but am going to next job and beyond.)

Third... Peat Moss is not often included in bonsai mixes up hereabouts. But some use it in other places (and bark too)... as one component in the mix, not as big chunks. If left to dry peat does resist water. Once the media is properly re-wetted it recovers.

Final.... and I'd love a specific answer to this question... not a theoretical someone...

Wondering exactly who are these bonsai hobbyists are that leave their trees/media to completely dry out...

.............and blame a media's well known limitations and not themselves, for poor horticultural practice?

(Kinda like in the 'good ole days,' when people asked in the Lone Ranger tv series, "Who was that Masked Man?" ;) )

All done. Best to you all,

Cheers
DSD sends
 
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keyfen06

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Lots of good points being made. I think I’m going to try growing some of my Satsuki next year in 100% Kanuma as opposed to my usual of 70/30 Kanuma/Chopped Sphagnum, just to see how they do. I may try using peat as well, especially if I start to use growing beds which is likely. I have started to layer the top of my azaleas with sphagnum moss to try and encourage better surface roots, and to increase humidity around them, especially those repotted this year. Unfortunately, I can’t find any sources of Yamagoke moss here in England so I can’t really compare it.

I’ve only been growing Satsuki somewhat seriously for just less than a year now, so I really don’t have much practical experience with different mediums. I’m simply going off what the chairman of my local bonsai club tells me, people on this website and people well versed in Satsuki (namely Alexander Kennedy, Paul Eslinger and Mike Jones). Another reason for mixing sphagnum in the media is that I heard that it’s good for nursing weak trees back to good health, and Peter Chan of Herons Bonsai even plants some of his trees in 100% sphagnum. Though, I’ve never tried this myself and I think it may stay too wet in this quite rainy part of England I call home…
 
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