Hi all. I'm just preparing all of the things I need to start repotting my Satsuki's soon, and I was wondering if anyone has any insight into the difference between the different types of sphagnum moss. Do Satsuki's prefer New Zealand Sphagnum Moss? In England, I can buy Welsh Sphagnum Moss for a lot cheaper in larger quantities, and I was curious as to whether this would be suitable for them or if the NZ moss had any different properties. I'm planning to pot them in a 70/30 mix of Kanuma to Sphagnum Moss, which I hope will be suitable for them. Hopefully this will work for young cuttings too.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
New zealand moss is the same as a soil medium as any other sphagnum, but new zealand moss has the perk that it can revive itself after dessiccation whereas other types of sphagnum cannot.
I would go with the local stuff if it's available, since you're not growing the moss itself.
I do recommend leaving the moss out in a warm place for a week or two and let the seeds and dandruff in there germinate, so it doesn't ruin your soil later on. The stuff we have here has some nasty grasses in there (and sometimes some drosera rotundifolia, which are pretty cool).
I would go with the local stuff if it's available, since you're not growing the moss itself.
I do recommend leaving the moss out in a warm place for a week or two and let the seeds and dandruff in there germinate, so it doesn't ruin your soil later on. The stuff we have here has some nasty grasses in there (and sometimes some drosera rotundifolia, which are pretty cool).
I know essentially nothing about moss, but I did buy a bag of it last year. If it desiccates, am I still able to use it in my potting mixes or does it just clog up the soil and become useless? Thanks.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
I use it for as long as it remains a healthy colour. I have some from last season thats been outside since last summer in dappled shade, its fine to use again this season either as a top dress or as a soil component. I get mine from garden centres, its cheaper in bnq but they dont always have it in stock. if you can source it from nature where you are have at it.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I wouldn't use sphagnum moss in the soil. Get some kanuma. It takes the guesswork out of things and is more consistent than trying to get the "right" sphagnum moss. What moss IS used with satsuki is Yamagoke moss. It is wetted down and layered on TOP of the soil to keep soil surface from drying out. Satsuki roots are mostly in the top couple of inches of soil, so can be prone to drying out.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
I should say ive never seen sphag used in a mix for satsuki, kanuma yes. Ive only seen it used as a top dress on kanuma. kanuma does dry out particularly quickly.
I often use sphag as a component for thirsty deciduous trees like beech n hornbeam, my balcony is a hot box in summer. everyone has different micro climates.
I often use sphag as a component for thirsty deciduous trees like beech n hornbeam, my balcony is a hot box in summer. everyone has different micro climates.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes. Sphagnum, especially in low pH soils barely breaks down and forms peat instead. The more you shred it though, the faster it does degrade.
The revival part is important if you're doing air layers and growing carnivorous plants; I prefer live sphagnum over dead.
Live sphagnum is less plagued by woodlice that will eat up air layer callus.
AJL
Chumono
Are you sure youre not confusing the terminology with Moss Peat which is the basic ingredient for the compost which most ericaceous plants are grow in in UK
Glaucus
Chumono
Sphagnum moss is the intact dried stuff that grows on the surface. Peat moss is mostly sphagnum but is decayed and dug up from the layers of a bog. It is brown or black.
One can use sphagnum moss to cover the kanuma after a repot, protecting the roots. Then when many new roots have grown into the fresh kanuma, you can remove the moss and expose more of the nebari.
There are probably a ton of different sphagnum species. I doubt for out purposes the species matters.
If I remember, it may be Callaham who in his satsuki book recommends mixing in sphagnum moss with kanuma in people with dry summers/Mediterranean climates that differ a lot from the mid summer Japanese rainy season.
One can use sphagnum moss to cover the kanuma after a repot, protecting the roots. Then when many new roots have grown into the fresh kanuma, you can remove the moss and expose more of the nebari.
There are probably a ton of different sphagnum species. I doubt for out purposes the species matters.
If I remember, it may be Callaham who in his satsuki book recommends mixing in sphagnum moss with kanuma in people with dry summers/Mediterranean climates that differ a lot from the mid summer Japanese rainy season.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
Back to your original question, New Zealand Moss is used primarily by orchid growers. It does not break down as fast as others and is therefore a good choice from orchids which may be re-potted rather infrequently and may be re-planted using some of the original core the plant was grown in. I have orchids that were re-potted many years ago and other than a bit of discoloration, the New Zealand moss is still holding up very well. Basically your question boils down to, What are your needs? If I didn't already have it from my orchid growing, I would buy the cheaper varieties.
There are good points above about Moss vs Moss Peat, but from your posting I feel you are well beyond that learning curve.
There are good points above about Moss vs Moss Peat, but from your posting I feel you are well beyond that learning curve.
Leo in N E Illinois
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The description of how to pot Satsuki by @rockm above is exactly what Rick Garcia describes in his latest book. Use 100% kanuma, top dress with yamagoke moss. Yama= mountain so it is Japanese for mountain moss. Chopped sphagnum is not an ideal substitute, but will work in a pinch.
There are some 200 or so species of sphagnum mosses, the differences are not easy to visually distinguish. What makes New Zealand sphagnum moss unique is it has the highest phenol content of any sphagnum species. This means it has natural antifungal and antibacterial properties useful for plant propagation and during war time making wound dressings. Chilean sphagnum has the second highest phenol content. Both will be useful as potting media for 3 or 4 years. Canadian sphagnum is the lowest in phenols, and will break down as a potting media in as little as 9 months in a high nutrient usage.
So New Zealand sphag - long fibers, high phenols - lasts upwards of 4 years - most expensive per pound.
Wisconsin and Canadian - cheapest - shorter fibers, lowest phenols, lasts 9 months to one year
European sphagnum is more like Canadian sphagnum than New Zealand, but I don't recall data on phenol content.
There are some 200 or so species of sphagnum mosses, the differences are not easy to visually distinguish. What makes New Zealand sphagnum moss unique is it has the highest phenol content of any sphagnum species. This means it has natural antifungal and antibacterial properties useful for plant propagation and during war time making wound dressings. Chilean sphagnum has the second highest phenol content. Both will be useful as potting media for 3 or 4 years. Canadian sphagnum is the lowest in phenols, and will break down as a potting media in as little as 9 months in a high nutrient usage.
So New Zealand sphag - long fibers, high phenols - lasts upwards of 4 years - most expensive per pound.
Wisconsin and Canadian - cheapest - shorter fibers, lowest phenols, lasts 9 months to one year
European sphagnum is more like Canadian sphagnum than New Zealand, but I don't recall data on phenol content.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
And BTW, if you're shredding and mixing this stuff dry, wear a mask and gloves. It can be a bit hazardous otherwise. Brian Batchelder, who pioneered the use of sphagnum moss as growth media for bonsai, apparently died from an acute, but rare form of sporotrichosis in his lungs from breathing sphagnum moss dust over a long period of time (or at least that's the theory).
Leo in N E Illinois
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Peat is transformed sphagnum. In a sphagnum moss bog, the lower layers of sphagnum die and sink. This dead sphagnum undergoes a decay process, initially aerobic , then anaerobic that transforms the once live sphagnum into peat. Typical peat harvested for horticulture is 100 or more years old from bottom layers of a bog. Peat is essentially partially fossilized sphagnum.
The pH of living and recently living sphagnum is near neutral to slightly acidic. The pH of peat can be moderately acidic to very acidic. Similar the cation exchange capacity for living sphagnum is moderate, the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of peat is much greater.
CEC really is only important if you are totally geeking out on nutrient supplementation. There are useful approximations that do not require CEC talk when you talk fertilizer. So forget I mentioned CEC.
The pH of living and recently living sphagnum is near neutral to slightly acidic. The pH of peat can be moderately acidic to very acidic. Similar the cation exchange capacity for living sphagnum is moderate, the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of peat is much greater.
CEC really is only important if you are totally geeking out on nutrient supplementation. There are useful approximations that do not require CEC talk when you talk fertilizer. So forget I mentioned CEC.
I don't think so, I've read on a few different websites about people using sphagnum moss chopped up in their mix for Satsuki's, but it's possible they may have meant moss peat? I know quite a few people here that do use sphagnum moss, but I think it's because of our climate like Glaucus mentioned and apparently it's quite good for the roots of plants, especially those which are sick. So far, I've had a lot of success with rooting cuttings in a mix of sphagnum moss and kanuma, but I haven't tried any in pure kanuma yet so it could just be a coincidence. I haven't tried it with my older plants yet, and I was planning on doing it soon with one older Satsuki that needs a repot.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
Ive never even heard of moss peat. if something is working for you, its a good component or mix or whatever. no harm in experimenting with pure kanuma, whenever i go to the nurseries here, the satsukis are usually in pure kanuma, but Ken at windbanks bonsai in surrey, top dresses with the s moss.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
No professional satsuki importer or grower that I know of uses peat most, moss peat, or sphagnum moss in their soil mixes. Doesn't do much for the roots, can become hydrophobic and/or mush that prematurely clogs drainage. I've bought satsuki from Rick Garcia and Dave Kreutz and also know of a grower who travels to Japan to work with satsuki masters there. I've seen their trees, none have anything but kanuma.
While sphagnum moss is locally available and mostly cheap, it's not really optimal for satsukis. I was a skeptic at first too about kanuma, but saw immediate improvement in my satsukis when I put them in it. I use it in a climate that is colder and hotter than yours. You would have no issues with it.
It also might be worth getting Rick's book. It is the most comprehensive English-language satsuki bonsai book published, from what I've seen. I have most of the others, none are nearly as good at explaining WHY some stuff works with satsukis and how to grow them.
Glaucus
Chumono
I'd actually think that with your climate, you wouldn't use sphagnum at all. But instead, keep it pure kanuma. I wouldn't recommend mixing in sphagnum with kanuma, because I have never tried nur seen a reason to do so. But since you suggest it and some people did recommend it (too lazy to check if it was indeed Callaham), I didn't feel the need to speak against it.
Mixing it with kanuma is different than padding the surface with it. And not done by the Japanese. Not sure about the difference between yamagoke and sphagnum.
For non-bonsai, peat is by far the most common growth medium for azaleas. If they are any good for bonsai, I refer to the substrate vs soil discussion on bonsai in general. Not all say 'one must absolutely use substrate and cannot use soil'.
But, if your azalea is in kanuma, you need to keep it at least 50% kanuma no matter what.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
Heres one long time importer of Japanese bonsai and an established nursery owner in the UK who uses a tiny percentage in his Yew mixes, I have heard of others using small amounts too, but not gonna dig them up now
The best soil mix I have found for this species is 50% sifted from dust and graded 3-6mm Akadama soil – the hard double red line grade, 45% 3-6mm Kiryu volcanic grit to enhance drainage and to stop the Akadama clay from breaking down and 5% Sphagnum Moss, cut up and sifted through a coarse sieve. At the moment I have found the live New Zealand Moss, that they sometimes sell for hanging baskets, to be very good.
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Leo in N E Illinois
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I will re-state "the Japanese Satsuki masters and the teachers in the USA trained by them recommend kanuma, only kanuma, top dressed with a thin layer of chopped yamagoke moss". Full stop.
Yes, I currently use the above for my Satsuki, being in the greater Chicago -Milwaukee are, it is not that hard to get kanuma, and even dried yamagoke moss. But I can be sympathetic with those that find these things easy to get. Do remember, mail order can be your friend. I got yamagoke moss from Rick Garcia the last time he was in Milwaukee.
The above is my favorite, below have worked, but not "as good".
Perlite with chopped New Zealand or Chilean sphagnum has worked in the past.
Perlite and douglas fir bark (seedling orchid bark) with or without chopped sphagnum, has worked, but not fully satisfactory.
Coarse sifted peat, with fir bark and perlite 1:1:1 essentially a blueberry media formula also has worked. This media requires repotting every 24 months or more often.
Shogun610
Masterpiece
I always use long fingered sphagnum you find at Home Depot then grind it up w a mesh mixed with real moss to use for top dressing , worked well for me to grow moss as an alternative to picking moss then placing on top of soil
