Developing JWP

[Maloghurst]

Hello all, I came across these neglected JWP at a local nursery. No graft and I’m I’m guessing 3-6 years old. I paid $10 for the smaller ones and $20 for the larger. I thought they would be good project to learn JWP on. The lower portions had a lot of moss and dead branching on the trunks. These are some of the better looking ones.
I’ve read tons of threads on here about these trees so I have a pretty good idea of how to proceed and don’t want to put anyone out by making them repeat all the basic knowledge of JWP. But I do want to verify I’m proceeding correctly to give them the best chance of becoming good bonsai in 25 years! This is how i am proceeding with the trees.

1.
A.The bigger tree has a lot of potential because it has 3 strong branches coming straight out of the base and these I will let grow freely as sacrificial branches.
B.I have pond baskets that I will repot the trees into in early spring.
C.I will wire some movement into them in September.
D.Fertilize in late September.
E.Request advice on how to keep foliage close to trunk and induce backbudding on the rest of the tree.
I have learned a lot about maintaining JWP but not so much about creating quality prebonsai.
The rest of the growth is all pretty leggy. Are these all destined to be litarati? I read a lot of post saying these will almost never or rarely ever get back-budding.
I am going to get more but these were the best of the bunch. Some other ones only had foliage half way up and the top. These I might get and use raffia and create a lot of movement for litarati style.
Thank you for the help.
Mike

 

[0soyoung]

There is only one way you'll be able to make anything other than some sort of arty literati of both of these trees - bend those trunks! The reason is that JWP doesn't back bud onto bare/old wood. In other words, the foliage is inevitably going to move farther away from the trunk than it is now. You can slow the march, but you cannot reverse it by any means other than grafting.

With the first one I see a possibility for a multi-trunk/clump, but as it is, it is quite boring. Some movement needs to be wired into those stems - look around on the web, there is a number of very nice bonsai in this style. All of them that I care for have a definite lean to all the stems - they don't come straight out of the (visual) ground. For example:


The second one, I see you have some wire wrapped around the trunk - so bend it! I suggest you bend it severely. The stem likely won't snap. Rather it may kink like a soda straw or crack open on the outside of the bend. If that area of the stem is wrapped with a moisture barrier like parafilm, self-amalgamating silicone tape, or the like, it will likely survive if there is a continuous line of cambium/bark across the kink. Worst case it dies above the kink - then you continue, working with those lower two branches.

If you do nothing else, I think it is most important for you to learn how to 'manage the foliage'. This, in itself will be well worth your $30 investment. Just to reiterate foliage management, after the fascicle sheaths drop you cut back this season's growth to 5 or 5 rows of fascicles (needle bundles). From what I see in your pix, this happened to long ago to do it this season. The problem is that if it is done too late, the tree won't regenerate a terminal bud nor produce any fascicular buds and that stem is as good as dead (just a matter of time until the needles drop within the next two years). However, I suggest you do it now and to only one shoot so that you can see for yourself if it is indeed too late. When pruned right after the sheaths drop, the pruning will induce fascicular buds and a new terminal. The fascicular buds are your only means to keep foliage close. In the spring the buds will push and as they elongate they will reach a point where you can discern needle scales. This is the time that you break the long ones to match the short ones elsewhere on the tree. This will shorten the season's new shoots as well as possibly induce some fascicular buds. The rest of it is just cutting back to a shoot/branch to eliminate what you don't need, just like you would with any species.

When you are comfortable working with JWP, you can get great starters of varieties that are good for bonsai from wabisabibonsai.com, evergreengardenworks.com, and coniferkingdom.com to name a few. It is rare to find these in garden centers, but I did make quite a deal on an 'Aoi' grown by Iseli in an Ace Hardware store's garden center a few years ago.

 

[Adair M]

If you do nothing else, I think it is most important for you to learn how to 'manage the foliage'. This, in itself will be well worth your $30 investment. Just to reiterate foliage management, after the fascicle sheaths drop you cut back this season's growth to 5 or 5 rows of fascicles (needle bundles). From what I see in your pix, this happened to long ago to do it this season. The problem is that if it is done too late, the tree won't regenerate a terminal bud nor produce any fascicular buds and that stem is as good as dead (just a matter of time until the needles drop within the next two years). However, I suggest you do it now and to only one shoot so that you can see for yourself if it is indeed too late. When pruned right after the sheaths drop, the pruning will induce fascicular buds and a new terminal. The fascicular buds are your only means to keep foliage close.

WHERE did you hear that? Do you do that with your JWP Oso?

I have never heard that before, and I have quite a few JWP.

I HAVE seen JWP back bud on their own onto old wood. They usually do it at old node intersections. The best way I know to induce that is to wire the pads out so that the stems (twigs and branches) get good sun exposure, and make sure the tree is strong and healthy.

 

[clive bennett]

I would trunk chop pine 2 to just above the second branch and wire that as the new leader. Yuo then have a nice tree with plenty of branches and foliage close to the trunk. Plant it in the garden for a few years unless you want a very small tree. You could do the same thing to the bigger treechopping to the branch that looks to be about 6 inches from the ground Good luck.

 

[0soyoung]

WHERE did you hear that? Do you do that with your JWP Oso

Except for the omission of the word ' may' (cut back), I guess your rage is with my "doesn't back bud on old wood claim". My trees must be too young or too small as I've not seen any yet. Then again I'm not cutting back shoots, punching buds/candles much yet either. The little I've done has just been a selected bud/shoot or two.

So, thanks @Adair M, good to know that I can look forward to back budding on leafless wood with mine in the future. Anything else I've got wrong about JWP 'foliage management'? I've got a number of them now and really don't want to write them off to 'learning'.

 

[Adair M]

Except for the omission of the word ' may' (cut back), I guess your rage is with my "doesn't back bud on old wood claim". My trees must be too young or too small as I've not seen any yet. Then again I'm not cutting back shoots, punching buds/candles much yet either. The little I've done has just been a selected bud/shoot or two.

So, thanks @Adair M, good to know that I can look forward to back budding on leafless wood with mine in the future. Anything else I've got wrong about JWP 'foliage management'? I've got a number of them now and really don't want to write them off to 'learning'.

Sorry to come off as “raging”, I’m not. Lol!!!

No, it’s the cut the tips leaving about 5 bundles of new needles thing. I’ve never heard of this, and I highly discourage doing this with anything other than a purely experimental trees. (One you literally don’t mind if you lose it.)

JWP are weak growers compared to almost any other pine. Doing what you suggested might work on EWP, I don’t know...

Here’s the deal with my JWP: each year they put out a bit of new growth. As soon as the new growth hardens off (usually around the end of July), the sheaths on the bundles dries up, and last year’s needles start to yellow. I have several different cultivars if JWP, and they all differ as to how long they hold onto last year’s needles, but the difference is a matter of months. Some start dropping old needles immediately, some wait until October. But none will stay on over the winter.

Even then, in the spring, some of the current year’s needles be slugged off. If I cut off all but 5 bundles of needles, they all might get stuffed off! And then, that’s a dead branch!

The problem with JWP is they are SO slow growing, we try to retain as much foliage as possible.

Now, please bear in mind that I work with the cultivars that are grown for bonsai. I don’t work with seedling grown JWP. They might need an entirely different protocol.

Oso, I’ll try to find some pictures of JWP back budding. It most definately happens, but not nearly as much as JBP or Scots.

 

[0soyoung]

Even then, in the spring, some of the current year’s needles be slugged off. If I cut off all but 5 bundles of needles, they all might get stuffed off! And then, that’s a dead branch!

Agreed, but this is what I said:

When pruned right after the sheaths drop, the pruning will induce fascicular buds and a new terminal.

The problem is that if it is done too late, the tree won't regenerate a terminal bud nor produce any fascicular buds and that stem is as good as dead (just a matter of time until the needles drop within the next two years).

I didn't explicitly say, "don't prune in spring", but I did say

In the spring the buds will push and as they elongate they will reach a point where you can discern needle scales. This is the time that you break the long ones to match the short ones elsewhere on the tree. This will shorten the season's new shoots as well as possibly induce some fascicular buds

I’ll try to find some pictures of JWP back budding. It most definately happens,

Great!



btw, I hope all this is helpful for you, @Maloghurst .

 

[Djtommy]

Sorry to come off as “raging”, I’m not. Lol!!!

No, it’s the cut the tips leaving about 5 bundles of new needles thing. I’ve never heard of this, and I highly discourage doing this with anything other than a purely experimental trees. (One you literally don’t mind if you lose it.)

JWP are weak growers compared to almost any other pine. Doing what you suggested might work on EWP, I don’t know...

Here’s the deal with my JWP: each year they put out a bit of new growth. As soon as the new growth hardens off (usually around the end of July), the sheaths on the bundles dries up, and last year’s needles start to yellow. I have several different cultivars if JWP, and they all differ as to how long they hold onto last year’s needles, but the difference is a matter of months. Some start dropping old needles immediately, some wait until October. But none will stay on over the winter.

Even then, in the spring, some of the current year’s needles be slugged off. If I cut off all but 5 bundles of needles, they all might get stuffed off! And then, that’s a dead branch!

The problem with JWP is they are SO slow growing, we try to retain as much foliage as possible.

Now, please bear in mind that I work with the cultivars that are grown for bonsai. I don’t work with seedling grown JWP. They might need an entirely different protocol.

Oso, I’ll try to find some pictures of JWP back budding. It most definately happens, but not nearly as much as JBP or Scots.

Adair, I did this on my wp this year, there were a lot of long new shoots, I cut them back, didn’t really count the needles but I think there were more then 5 bundles left though.
I did this about a month ago, most of them now seems to be getting buds at the cut site.

I only did this because i wanted to shorten them, to induce backbudding it’s probably better to let them grow.

 

[garywood]

Hello all, I came across these neglected JWP at a local nursery. No graft and I’m I’m guessing 3-6 years old. I paid $10 for the smaller ones and $20 for the larger. I thought they would be good project to learn JWP on. The lower portions had a lot of moss and dead branching on the trunks. These are some of the better looking ones.
I’ve read tons of threads on here about these trees so I have a pretty good idea of how to proceed and don’t want to put anyone out by making them repeat all the basic knowledge of JWP. But I do want to verify I’m proceeding correctly to give them the best chance of becoming good bonsai in 25 years! This is how i am proceeding with the trees.

1.
A.The bigger tree has a lot of potential because it has 3 strong branches coming straight out of the base and these I will let grow freely as sacrificial branches.
B.I have pond baskets that I will repot the trees into in early spring.
C.I will wire some movement into them in September.
D.Fertilize in late September.
E.Request advice on how to keep foliage close to trunk and induce backbudding on the rest of the tree.
I have learned a lot about maintaining JWP but not so much about creating quality prebonsai.
The rest of the growth is all pretty leggy. Are these all destined to be litarati? I read a lot of post saying these will almost never or rarely ever get back-budding.
I am going to get more but these were the best of the bunch. Some other ones only had foliage half way up and the top. These I might get and use raffia and create a lot of movement for litarati style.
Thank you for the help.
Mike



Mike, JWP backbud even on old wood like most all pines. With JWP, you can't cut as drastically as with other pines so the process is slower.
If you notice the difference between the last 2yr growth and the rest, there is a marked difference in bud strength. Top vs Bottom 2yr buds. This fall prune the 2year growth on top of both trees, only the central leader, that's all. Pot in spring and next fall prune only 2yr growth that's outside the eventual silhouette of the future tree. After that you can start thinking about bonsai technique. If you have good husbandry and it it is strong there should be enough to start with.

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[garywood]

Mike, JWP backbud on older wood like all pines if that is the focus. Your choice is, to develop or do bonsai. You can't do both at the same time and expect reasonable results. To get a good response from potting next spring there needs to be strong buds. On both trees cut the 2yr old central leader this fall. JWP are slower and drastic cuts slow them down even further so only one cut each. That will leave a strong terminal bud for root growth next year. The following fall cut any strong 2yr growth outside the eventual silhouette of the finished tree, that's all. If it's a strong tree there should be enough backbuds and shoot density that you can start thinking about bonsai technique.

 

[0soyoung]

Mike, JWP backbud on older wood like all pines if that is the focus. Your choice is, to develop or do bonsai. You can't do both at the same time and expect reasonable results. To get a good response from potting next spring there needs to be strong buds. On both trees cut the 2yr old central leader this fall. JWP are slower and drastic cuts slow them down even further so only one cut each. That will leave a strong terminal bud for root growth next year. The following fall cut any strong 2yr growth outside the eventual silhouette of the finished tree, that's all. If it's a strong tree there should be enough backbuds and shoot density that you can start thinking about bonsai technique.

Maybe this is clear to @Maloghurst, but I'm quite confused about what 'cutting any strong 2 year growth' is on a JWP. Since needles don't stay but 2 years, this would seem to be removing strong branches (or portions thereof) that are outside the eventual silhouette (?).

btw, @Maloghurst, I apologize for my misunderstanding of this species and hence mistaken 'advice' in post #2. And, the before was meant lightheartedly - sorry for essentially high jacking your thread.

 

[garywood]

Maybe this is clear to @Maloghurst, but I'm quite confused about what 'cutting any strong 2 year growth' is on a JWP. Since needles don't stay but 2 years, this would seem to be removing strong branches (or portions thereof) that are outside the eventual silhouette (?).

btw, @Maloghurst, I apologize for my misunderstanding of this species and hence mistaken 'advice' in post #2. And, the before was meant lightheartedly - sorry for essentially high jacking your thread.

Naught, if you look at the pictures, the nodal growth at the top. yearly growth is discernible. needles have very little to do with that. notice the difference between the 2yr nodes on top vs the 2yr nodes on lower growth. The purpose is to walk back the strong growth to lower growth. The same principle applies to all trees we "cut back" but JWP react slower but they still react.

 

[Adair M]

Djtommy,

But did you do this in the spring, or after the sheaths dropped?

Pinching back in the spring is different. Then, the stem will form new terminal buds. Waiting until later... well, I’m not so sure!

Naught,

Maybe I’m misunderstanding your term “fascicle sheath”. Are you talking about the little sheath at the base of each bundle of needles? Or the whitish membrane that covers the outside of the candle as the candle is extending, but before the individual bundle of needles can be detected?

The “sheath”that covers the entire candle disappears in the spring. The ones on each bundle of needles stay on until mid to late summer. IF you are talking about the ones on the individual bundles of needles, I think it’s too late to shorten the shoots. IF you are talking about breaking back candles while they are still extending and before actual needles have appeared, then yes, you are correct, that IS a good time to shorten long shoots. The only caveat is sometimes it’s hard to determine which of the little bumps are going to be needles, and which are going to be pollen cones! I have broken all the needles off leaving only pollen cones on a stem before!

So, if I misread what you were trying to say, I apologize!

 

[MichaelS]

Now, please bear in mind that I work with the cultivars that are grown for bonsai. I don’t work with seedling grown JWP. They might need an entirely different protocol.

.

They are entirely different. Comparing grafted whites and seedlings is like comparing too different species. Grafted ones are infinitely easier to grow and insult.

 

[Adair M]

They are entirely different. Comparing grafted whites and seedlings is like comparing too different species. Grafted ones are infinitely easier to grow and insult.

Interesting. The grafted varieties are usually dwarf varieties chosen for their needle quality and growth habits. (Short internodes).

 

[MichaelS]

Interesting. The grafted varieties are usually dwarf varieties chosen for their needle quality and growth habits. (Short internodes).

Yes. When I say grafted I mean on Black pine. I had a grafted dwarf on white pine and I lost it. I have about 50 white pine seedlings I would like to graft kokonoe onto in a couple of years but I sometimes wonder if it's all worth the trouble. I can get good mycorrhiza on the seedlings but I struggle to keep colour on them during winter. (they do keep better colour in winter if they are out of full sun - go figure) They seem to be lacking in one or more particular nutrient and I'm damned if I can find what it is. I've tried foliar feeding with manganese and molybdemon. (the yellow is on the old leaves so I doubt it's iron, copper or zinc). It could be nitrogen but I don't understand how that could be. I hate not knowing so I'll continue to investigate. If anyone has an idea, let me know! Murata says they need more feeding than black pine and others say they need less.

 

[Adair M]

Yes. When I say grafted I mean on Black pine. I had a grafted dwarf on white pine and I lost it. I have about 50 white pine seedlings I would like to graft kokonoe onto in a couple of years but I sometimes wonder if it's all worth the trouble. I can get good mycorrhiza on the seedlings but I struggle to keep colour on them during winter. (they do keep better colour in winter if they are out of full sun - go figure) They seem to be lacking in one or more particular nutrient and I'm damned if I can find what it is. I've tried foliar feeding with manganese and molybdemon. (the yellow is on the old leaves so I doubt it's iron, copper or zinc). It could be nitrogen but I don't understand how that could be. I hate not knowing so I'll continue to investigate. If anyone has an idea, let me know! Murata says they need more feeding than black pine and others say they need less.

You might see if Julian Adams micronutrients helps. He swears by it for Zuisho. Www.adamsbonsai.com. I have no idea if he ships to Oz.

I have some and I use it on all my white pines.

I have a Kokonoe on its own roots. It started by being grafted on JBP. At some point it was ground layered. Whether by accident or on purpose, I’ll never know. But, during a repot, it was discovered there were two sets of roots: a set of JBP roots, and then a section of trunk, then another set of roots above the graft. The lower trunk was removed, and now the tree is on its own roots.

The tree benefited from the JBP roots during its early growth phase. But now that it’s matured, being on its own roots keeps the growth in check.

Since you propagate, you might want to consider this approach for Kokonoe.

Mine is not the only tree I know to be like this. At least one other similarly styled tree had dual roots. Both are now on Kokonoe roots, after being on JBP roots 20+ years.

 

[Djtommy]

Djtommy,

But did you do this in the spring, or after the sheaths dropped?

Pinching back in the spring is different. Then, the stem will form new terminal buds. Waiting until later... well, I’m not so sure!

Adair, not in spring. Timing was when the sheaths were dripping, if I went with my hand through the needles lots of sheaths would drop.
If you do it in spring then yes you can get shorter internodes aswell however the needles will be much longer. (I have done this and saw the result) Not all wp have natural short needles. For long needle types waiting till sheaths drop seems the better approach. That said, It was first time I did this but it seems to work.

 

[Maloghurst]

Mike, JWP backbud on older wood like all pines if that is the focus. Your choice is, to develop or do bonsai. You can't do both at the same time and expect reasonable results. To get a good response from potting next spring there needs to be strong buds. On both trees cut the 2yr old central leader this fall. JWP are slower and drastic cuts slow them down even further so only one cut each. That will leave a strong terminal bud for root growth next year. The following fall cut any strong 2yr growth outside the eventual silhouette of the finished tree, that's all. If it's a strong tree there should be enough backbuds and shoot density that you can start thinking about bonsai technique.

Yes. When I say grafted I mean on Black pine. I had a grafted dwarf on white pine and I lost it. I have about 50 white pine seedlings I would like to graft kokonoe onto in a couple of years but I sometimes wonder if it's all worth the trouble. I can get good mycorrhiza on the seedlings but I struggle to keep colour on them during winter. (they do keep better colour in winter if they are out of full sun - go figure) They seem to be lacking in one or more particular nutrient and I'm damned if I can find what it is. I've tried foliar feeding with manganese and molybdemon. (the yellow is on the old leaves so I doubt it's iron, copper or zinc). It could be nitrogen but I don't understand how that could be. I hate not knowing so I'll continue to investigate. If anyone has an idea, let me know! Murata says they need more feeding than black pine and others say they need less.

Sorry to come off as “raging”, I’m not. Lol!!!

No, it’s the cut the tips leaving about 5 bundles of new needles thing. I’ve never heard of this, and I highly discourage doing this with anything other than a purely experimental trees. (One you literally don’t mind if you lose it.)

JWP are weak growers compared to almost any other pine. Doing what you suggested might work on EWP, I don’t know...

Here’s the deal with my JWP: each year they put out a bit of new growth. As soon as the new growth hardens off (usually around the end of July), the sheaths on the bundles dries up, and last year’s needles start to yellow. I have several different cultivars if JWP, and they all differ as to how long they hold onto last year’s needles, but the difference is a matter of months. Some start dropping old needles immediately, some wait until October. But none will stay on over the winter.

Even then, in the spring, some of the current year’s needles be slugged off. If I cut off all but 5 bundles of needles, they all might get stuffed off! And then, that’s a dead branch!

The problem with JWP is they are SO slow growing, we try to retain as much foliage as possible.

Now, please bear in mind that I work with the cultivars that are grown for bonsai. I don’t work with seedling grown JWP. They might need an entirely different protocol.

Oso, I’ll try to find some pictures of JWP back budding. It most definately happens, but not nearly as much as JBP or Scots.

Maybe this is clear to @Maloghurst, but I'm quite confused about what 'cutting any strong 2 year growth' is on a JWP. Since needles don't stay but 2 years, this would seem to be removing strong branches (or portions thereof) that are outside the eventual silhouette (?).

btw, @Maloghurst, I apologize for my misunderstanding of this species and hence mistaken 'advice' in post #2. And, the before was meant lightheartedly - sorry for essentially high jacking your thread.

Yes, and thank you to all, it’s all very helpful discussion. Clearly some people have ok results doing things a little differently. Let me try to explain better what I would like to achieve.

1. I believe I can thicken the trunk over the next 10 years with sacrifice branching while keeping potential branches in check (possibly backbudding etc) and close to trunk. I believe these can be achieved at the same time from all I’ve read.
This is what my main question is and it seems the answer would be to
1: wire out the branching to expose it to as much light as possible, hope for the backbudding and cut back to inner branch when possible.
2: in spring at candle pinching time I will pinch candles to direct energy to sacrifice branches and balance the rest of tree which should also help backbudding.
3: I figured I should refrain from needle cutting or pulling for awhile but if you think I should, Oso I would love a pic of the “Leaving 5 needle bundles from new growth” just on the branches I’m developing for future use in design. Actually as I write it out I think I see what your saying but a pic would help.
4: it’s too early imo to start cutting back the main leader. I think it might weaken the tree too much.

Here are some pics of what I am hoping for in 10-15 years. At least with the bigger tree with the low branching.
The smaller trees with no branches at the base I will try different techniques, with lots of twist and bends. It’s hard to tell in the pic but the three bottom branches come from near the soil line a different spots. The base already is nearly twice as thick as two inches above it.( its hard to see because it’s wet)
Tell where I’m completely off base with this plan?

 

[0soyoung]

Oso I would love a pic of the “Leaving 5 needle bundles from new growth” just on the branches I’m developing for future use in

It is just counting fascicles from the base of this year's shoot. Following pic for illustration is of a new pinus strobus shoot (strobus, just for convenience)