JWP - First Branch Developing and Cutting Strategy

[montipirlo]

Hi guys,
I've got this JWP and i'd like to work on the 3 lowest branches, with particulary care for the first one ( lowest right )



This is a zoom of fist brach. It's healtly, i removed some needles ( not too much and not all the olders ones )
and i wired down to get caching more ligth. I removed the wire to rest the plant for the autumn wire operations in which i'd like to define completely the first 3 branches.





This branch has some problem:
1) Too straight the first section, (but with some wire i'll have reason of it)
2) Starting to be too leggy.

Zooming on a section of the first branch:


I've got some bud on the back side, one small bud ( the X one ), so i can make the branch go back of few inches, removing a lot of vegetation and power.
It'd like to develop the branch, make it bigger, let him grow. But on the other side i'm afraid to have a leggy one in some year or lose power on this branch.

How do i've to deal with it?
Cutting but this Winter? Cutting back next May/June? Let him grow?

Thanks
Davide

 

[Adair M]

Good pictures!

JWP are difficult to get to back bud, so the challenge is keeping foliage close to the trunk. Over time, the branches get longer, and longer...

So, try to keep short internodes.

There are a couple places on that branch where you have three branchlets coming off one spot. A stronger, longer center one, and two side shoots. I recommend you consider removing the center branch! And training the two side shoots with wire. One gets trained to be the new leader, and the other a side branch. The side branches alternate: left, right, left, right...

Here's a diagram that illustrates my point:

 

[montipirlo]

Here the options i think i've got.
I know it's quite impossible take a position just looking a picture, but what do you think is the better one?

I think the better is the light blue, but also the red is interesting.

R = Right L = Left T=Top/Leader after the cut





Another fundamental question. The timing.
By now the Leader of the branch has 2 or 3 buds. This means that the new leader will probably have only 1 buds so next year i'll have a single bud development.
The early summer ( before the growing of the buds ) it's a better timing for this call, or i've got hopes to see new buds on the new leader in spring if i cut in winter?

Thank you, i really appreciate your suggestions.

Davide

 

[Adair M]

If the current leader is too long already, what difference how many buds it has?

The whole point is to get and keep folisge closer to the trunk.

This is a marathon. A decades long marathon. Ya gotta do stuff in the short term that make the tree look bad now, for the long term benefit in the future. Kinda like putting braces on your kid's teeth!

The whole tree needs this kind of thing.

 

[0soyoung]

@montipirlo, I suggest that you do NOT pluck needles. Instead,

• break long candles to balance their lengths over the branch and/or the entire tree
  • do not break candles in weak areas
• cut off about one third of each new shoot as soon as the needle sheaths have dropped (new foliage has 'hardened')
  • do not cut shoots in weak areas

This should induce fascicular budding (budding at the base of needle groups) which will help to keep foliage closer to the trunk and to shorten internodes.

 

[Adair M]

@montipirlo, I suggest that you do NOT pluck needles. Instead,

• break long candles to balance their lengths over the branch and/or the entire tree
  • do not break candles in weak areas
• cut off about one third of each new shoot as soon as the needle sheaths have dropped (new foliage has 'hardened')
  • do not cut shoots in weak areas

This should induce fascicular budding (budding at the base of needle groups) which will help to keep foliage closer to the trunk and to shorten internodes.

True, needle pulling (plucking) is generally not a JWP technique. They're cut off, really short instead.

But this tree is not a candidate for foliage thinning at this time.

The candle breaking technique is a spring season activity. Not fall work.

In fall, on the terminal tips that you go want to keep, if there are more than two buds, reduce down to two buds for next season.

JWP do not have the same kind of needle sheaths that Bkack pines have. Cutting shoots in half or one third after needles have developed is too late in my opinion.

JWP are single flush, for the most part. Their needles will harden off earlier than JBP in the fall, so it's safe to work on them earlier. Basically when the old needles yellow, then turn brown, and fall off at the slightest touch is the signal that the new needles are hardened, and you can thin buds, and wire.

If you have "balance issues" and some shoots are significantly stronger than others, you can help restore balance by cutting off some of this year's needles on those shoots. Cut off ones closer to the trunk, rather than at the tip.

Cutting, rather than pulling does leave the dormant "neede bud" intact as Oso said. These are unlikely to pop, but it does happen occasionally. Be happy if you get some! But, you cannot rely on it happening.

Density is built by keeping internodes short. And the technique of "pinching" aka "candle breaking" that Oso mentioned is a valid approach.

 

[montipirlo]

@montipirlo, I suggest that you do NOT pluck needles. Instead,

• break long candles to balance their lengths over the branch and/or the entire tree
  • do not break candles in weak areas
• cut off about one third of each new shoot as soon as the needle sheaths have dropped (new foliage has 'hardened')
  • do not cut shoots in weak areas

This should induce fascicular budding (budding at the base of needle groups) which will help to keep foliage closer to the trunk and to shorten internodes.

Ty Oso,
My problem is that i'm trying to understand how to operate in a weak area.
On a strong area, like top, i will not doing all of this overthinking.
First brach is becoming laggy, so i need to keep the needle near the trunck.
I can help the process with wire, but i need a growing strategy.

By now my first branch is quite vigorous, full on buds (2/3 on the leader, 1/2 on the other branches) and new/old needles.
I didn't pluck the old needles ( on pine in general i prefer cutting ) on this branch but only on the mid and up side of the tree.

My options are:

• Leader sostitution in winter using 1 of the options of the pic with cuts (hoping not to drain too much energy from the first branch)
  
• Let the current branch leader growing and get strength, (taking the risk of having a more laggy branch), doing candle control on the leader and let growing candles on the other flush on spring and choose:

1. Change the leader before the next year buds generation after candle maturation ( mid may/june ).
2. Cutting the new shoot at 1/3 after candle maturation as you suggest.
   
3. Keeping the current leader and keep growing hoping in backbudding.

What do you think about my analysis.?

Davide

​

 

[Adair M]

Cutting the new shoot at 1/3 after candle maturation is not recommended. (Option 2)

 

[montipirlo]

Cutting the new shoot at 1/3 after candle maturation is not recommended. (Option 2)

Then Adair?
What do you think can be the night choice?
I Need you opinion becouse my two year jwp experience is not enought.

I think i'll gonna chose the A. ( Leader substitution this winter) Just becouse in lack of experience is the faster to experiment, and in any casa it doesn't hurt the health of the tree
Bals


But olso the changing leader on early Summer can be a interesting choice

 

[Adair M]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but I would cut the middle branch out where the blue and orange lines are. That would shorten the branch considerably. Also cut the middle branch out of the other chicken foot structure on the right.

Similiar cuts are probably needed all over the tree.

If only the lowest branch is cut, it would probably be too short. Doing it all over keeps it consistent for the whole tree.

The reason I'd cut it, is to keep the foliage close to the trunk as possible. That section I'm suggesting you remove has a longer bare section. Creating "legginess".

 

[Adair M]

I went and took another look at your tree. The overall impression is it's "tall and skinny". The trunk is rather thin for the height of the tree.

Generally speaking, when we're working with "tall and skinny", that means "short branches". A tree that's "short and fat" usually can support longer branches.

Your lowest branch on the right, is simply too long. You need to shorten it.

Incidentally, there are a couple way to create the "short branch" look. One way is to simply have short branches. (And is the method I suggest you use.). The other is to have longer branches, but they bend down severely, so that even though the total length is long, the foliage at the end is still close to the trunk because they hang so low. Old literati can be trained this way.

Problem is, JWP usually are styled with more horizontal branches. I think the theory is they'll break off before they'll bend down.

But I digress...

Think about how you can shorten all your branches. Shorter branches would meek your trunk look more substantial.

Cheers!

 

[Djtommy]

i wouldnt worry about that low branch too much, i bet you will cut it off in future anywayz.

 

[montipirlo]

I went and took another look at your tree. The overall impression is it's "tall and skinny". The trunk is rather thin for the height of the tree.

Generally speaking, when we're working with "tall and skinny", that means "short branches". A tree that's "short and fat" usually can support longer branches.

Your lowest branch on the right, is simply too long. You need to shorten it.

Incidentally, there are a couple way to create the "short branch" look. One way is to simply have short branches. (And is the method I suggest you use.). The other is to have longer branches, but they bend down severely, so that even though the total length is long, the foliage at the end is still close to the trunk because they hang so low. Old literati can be trained this way.

Problem is, JWP usually are styled with more horizontal branches. I think the theory is they'll break off before they'll bend down.

But I digress...

Think about how you can shorten all your branches. Shorter branches would meek your trunk look more substantial.

Cheers!

Ty you for your answer Adair,
I'm sorry for my english, sometimes it's not so good.
I try to explain better my motivations and what's are my expectations:

This is a relative young tree and i don't want shortcut to reach a good result, but find a good coltivation method to build some good primary and secondary branch structure on the lower section of the tree.
I don't care about next years shape. I'm looking forward to future years hoping to have good structure on which create some good tertiary ramifications.
My bigger concernes are on the healty of the tree and the healty of the branch.

This branch is too long and leggy for the structure of the tree, as you say. I have to create some movement with wire on the first and second part of the branch, but this is not enought.

I'm not afraid doing that cut, i was asking:

• if it was the right move for the healty/power of the branch ( i have a closing vegetation to the trunk, but less needles so less power on this branch next year )
  
• if winter is the right time to do or it was better doing it before bud development, letting the two side branches have more energy ( this is only for future operation, this year is too late obv )

Ty for all of your advice.
Davide

 

[Adair M]

For JWP, early fall is a great time to prune and style.

The cuts were talking about are not major cuts. No worries.

And this type of structure development I'm proposing are for the long term development of the tree.

 

[Adair M]

Here is a picture of the kind of pruning I'm advocating.



Sorry it came out sideways!

 

[montipirlo]

Thank you very much Adair,
you're alway kind and helpful.

 

[Adair M]

Thank you very much Adair,
you're alway kind and helpful.

I try to be helpful.

Not everyone thinks I'm kind! Lol!!!

 

[the1only]

@Adair M. So JWP is it better or preferable keeping foliages at the bottom of trunk? Pic of the left pine. Thanks

 

[Adair M]

That appears to be a Japanese Black Pine, not White.

On any pine style except literati, taper is very important. To get taper, there have to be branches down low, creating wood on the trunk below the branch.

To me, the tree on the left is a better candidate for bonsai than the one on the right. The center trunk is a sacrifice trunk. The distance between the first little branches and the next higher branch is too long. In fact it appears to be longer than the distance between the soul and the first branch.

So, you could grow the trunk out another year or so, then chop it at the first whorl. One of the little branches at the first whorl will become the new leader, the trunk. Another will be the first branch. And then that process is repeated in a couple years picking a new trunk line and second branch. And do on.

 

[the1only]

Firstly sorry to OP, did not meant to high jack your thread. Just reading you post and saw Adair M. replying and just looking for his input of knowledge. Secondly, thanks Adair for the inputs, definitely will take your advice. Also you are correct it is a JBP. Noted to self should not be writing on the forum while working and not proof read .