Depth of flooding of Bald Cypress affects buttressing??

[Joe Dupre']

Has anyone experimented with the actual depth of flooding of bald cypress and its effect on buttressing? The last place I lived had 17 cypress trees....... 3 on land and the rest right at the edge of Bayou Lafourche at varying depths. The trees on land got MUCH bigger but with average buttress flaring in the 25 years I was there. The ones at the water's edge grew much less but had a bit bigger buttressing. There was one out in deeper water that did have a better flare and buttressing but grew the slowest out of all of them. I would guess that its soil line was approx. 18" below the water line. I might have to do a bit of experimenting.

 

[Backwardsvg]

I was just thinking the same exact thing. Lots of people put pots inside of water to the rim. I want to try to put it in a pot that submerges then bottom 3-5 inches of trunk so it’s really underwater and see what happens

 

[Cajunrider]

Has anyone experimented with the actual depth of flooding of bald cypress and its effect on buttressing? The last place I lived had 17 cypress trees....... 3 on land and the rest right at the edge of Bayou Lafourche at varying depths. The trees on land got MUCH bigger but with average buttress flaring in the 25 years I was there. The ones at the water's edge grew much less but had a bit bigger buttressing. There was one out in deeper water that did have a better flare and buttressing but grew the slowest out of all of them. I would guess that its soil line was approx. 18" below the water line. I might have to do a bit of experimenting.

I am seeing the exact same growth pattern on hundreds of BCs grown at nearly the same time when a farm was converted to a private habitat.
Planted at the same time on similar soil, the trees have nearly the same root mass but the trunk at the top gets smaller as the depth of water increases.
@Backwardsvg Don’t submerge your newly collected tree in the first year. Wait until second summer. You want to encourage up top growth on it.

 

[Backwardsvg]

I am seeing the exact same growth pattern on hundreds of BCs grown at nearly the same time when a farm was converted to a private habitat.
Planted at the same time on similar soil, the trees have nearly the same root mass but the trunk at the top gets smaller as the depth of water increases.
@Backwardsvg Don’t submerge your newly collected tree in the first year. Wait until second summer. You want to encourage up top growth on it.

For sure I wasn’t going to submerge this one! This tree is like my baby I’m not gonna risk anything on it until it is 100% recovered and has extremely prolific growth

I have some others I was going to experiment with.

 

[Zelrod]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/nursery-bald-cypress-1.54572/post-1018996

The tree in this photo is always in standing water. Like your examples, the trees along the sore are much taller but the water level definitely affects the swelling of the base of the tree.

 

[August44]

I have some BC seedlings coming soon. What would you suggest in regards to having the trees in water at least in the summer months? Help appreciated

 

[Joe Dupre']

I have some BC seedlings coming soon. What would you suggest in regards to having the trees in water at least in the summer months? Help appreciated

I don't have any experience with seedlings, but in nature, they get flooded at the seedling stage as a normal part of their life. You may NOT want to flood them because it seems they actually grow bigger, faster in wet conditions rather than flooded conditions. BC have evolved to fill a niche not filled by many trees. They CAN survive flooded conditions, but that doesn't mean they that it's the optimal state for them. Same with cactus. Yes, they can survive drought conditions, but the right amount of water really makes them prosper.

If you have enough seedlings to experiment, try some flooded to various depths and some just really well watered in draining containers. Keep us posted.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Has anyone experimented with the actual depth of flooding of bald cypress and its effect on buttressing?

From what I've read, tree buttressing is largely a function of the roots being able to grow to enormous lengths in nature and, therefore, just not really possible in a pot.

 

[Zelrod]

Joe offers some great advice. I think a good compromise is flood the pot when dormant season is over and leave it damp but not submerged once the leaves have dropped.

 

[Michael P]

Randy Bennett wrote a great series of articles on bald cypress for the New Orleans Bonsai Society. Here is the one covering knees and pot submergence: https://gnobs.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/CREATION-OF-KNEES-ON-BALD-CYPRESS.pdf I will try his technique on my one bald cypress this year.

 

[Cajunrider]

Joe offers some great advice. I think a good compromise is flood the pot when dormant season is over and leave it damp but not submerged once the leaves have dropped.

That is exactly what I do for juvenile BC. For collected BC with good buttresses, I don’t.

 

[Backwardsvg]

I have collected about 200 seeds and am stratifying them. I am going to do a whole bunch of experiments on them so I will gladly start a thread to show what I am doing.

If you have any ideas / experiments that you want to see let me know

My main experiments are going to be
1- dry soil (watered but runs through)
2- submerged soil (up to the brim of the pot)
3- underwater soil (I will be placing the pots in a bigger pot with water 2-4 inches above the soil line)

 

[Backwardsvg]

Randy Bennett wrote a great series of articles on bald cypress for the New Orleans Bonsai Society. Here is the one covering knees and pot submergence: https://gnobs.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/CREATION-OF-KNEES-ON-BALD-CYPRESS.pdf I will try his technique on my one bald cypress this year.

I wonder if the "root bound" that he talks about to get knees is less width but more depth. If you have one in a shallower pot to preserve the shallowness of it, it will then have to pop up right? I think that would aid in knees but I have no idea yet.

 

[Maiden69]

From what I've read, tree buttressing is largely a function of the roots being able to grow to enormous lengths in nature and, therefore, just not really possible in a pot.

This... also the amount of roots generated closer to the base will help, but the length of the roots and the thickness they develop is that exaggerates the buttress and allows the form of fluting at the base of the trees. I have been getting decent flare by using rootpouch (as the brand), not the regular airpruning bags. This one pinches the root tip promoting root ramification. This is why they work in-ground and in my case in-water.

 

[rockm]

Depth of submersion does make a great deal of difference in fluting in BC in the wild. However, the depth of water possible in a container isn't really deep enough to influence it much. Simply too shallow. Water depths of 5-10 to even 15 feet in the wild produce bottle-shaped fluting in BC. Shallower water tables produce ridge shapes. Root run at those shallower depths are responsible for that. The more room roots have to grow, the more ridging is possible. All this according to Clair Brown in "Bald Cypress: The Tree Unique, the Wood Eternal" by Clair A. Brown and Glen N. Montz. Both did extensive research on BC in the 1980's for LSU.

 

[rockm]

I have collected about 200 seeds and am stratifying them. I am going to do a whole bunch of experiments on them so I will gladly start a thread to show what I am doing.

If you have any ideas / experiments that you want to see let me know

My main experiments are going to be
1- dry soil (watered but runs through)
2- submerged soil (up to the brim of the pot)
3- underwater soil (I will be placing the pots in a bigger pot with water 2-4 inches above the soil line)

There's really no need to do this. It's been done by a few people before you...Pick one and go with it. BC will grow in most anything. All the mixes and conditions you've listed will work, although "dry" soil won't be ideal, but won't kill them either. FWIW, I grow BC in a 70/30 mix of bonsai soil and potting/top soil. It stays soggy, but also drains. I don't like the accompanying work associated with standing water (mosquitos, algae, etc). Also FWIW, standing water isn't really the "natural" environment for BC. Swamp water circulates, slowly, but it moves. STanding water --particularly warm standing water doesn't hold a lot of O2 and can make soil go anaerobic--which makes it stink.

 

[Backwardsvg]

Did you do side by side comparisons of each way of growing them to see the differences of how they are growing? I would love to see how they faired side by side!

I could add a water pump to slowly swirl it increasing O2 and also mimicking a swamp. Could be interesting

 

[rockm]

Did you do side by side comparisons of each way of growing them to see the differences of how they are growing? I would love to see how they faired side by side!

I could add a water pump to slowly swirl it increasing O2 and also mimicking a swamp. Could be interesting

I haven't done it, but if you search around you can find others that have. Not really all that interesting. Incremental improvements, nothing really dramatic.

IMO, everyone underestimates the inherent vigor of BC seedlings. They are extremely vigorous trees and grow like mad--most anywhere when given basic needs--access to water, richer soil and sunshine. If you do research on where they grow best, --and I'm talking ACTUAL research from reputable universities, forest services, etc., you will find that they put on the most growth in SEASONALLY flooded sites. Flooding usually in the fall, but water receding in the spring and summer. Trying to replicate a swamp in a container is mostly a waste of time. Might be a diversion, but the trees you put in soggy soil that drains will likely do just as well without all the effort.

 

[rockm]

To clarify what I use to grow BC its 70 percent potting/top soil and 30 percent bonsai soil.

 

[Joe Dupre']

How's this for a hypothesis? If you want buttressing, how about letting the roots coming off the small existing buttresses grow long and coil around the pot and maybe trim back the rest of the roots. I have no idea.........just thinking out loud. Maybe, since BC don't care about an oversized container, just put it in the biggest container you can muster and feed the heck out of it.