Corylus avellana 'Contorta'

[sorce]

The funk is the last tree!
Not using it is not using the best tapered section.

You are not going to gain any more interest in those layered branches by layering them any lower than my red line.

In fact....I would layer them one year at a time starting with the thinnest one, so it remains smallest on the clump....
Until you get to the biggest....
This will help improve their size differences.

Forgive me....

But the virt pic you have posted seems to take everything that is interesting about this tree out of the picture!
I'm Ok with multiple trunks starting above soil line....cuz that IS how they grow!
But it seems a clump is this ones only saving grace.
Thinking of @thumblessprimate1 wiggly clump.

Do these even layer?

Sorce

 

[Cadillactaste]

What route would you go with this tree from this point? I certainly understand it is a slow grower, I want to keep as much of it as possible, as I really like the shapes and directions of it.

I think you are trying to hard for a direction. Your proposed virtual drawing of removing all character in a canopy shape trunks by removing all character to the shrub. Are completely opposite of your statement of liking the shape and directions of it.

Here are facts I know...ground growing a tree grows are the quickest way to thicken a trunk and develop a tree...yet, my very own in ground has not thickened...and has not grown much in the years in ground. So pot verses ground. Might as well keep it in the pot as stated by another poster..which thinking about it...I agreed.

I think you really need to either embrace it as it's quirky self. Those two branches keep attracting your eye. I still say...leave it rest until it speaks to you. (it certainly didn't say...here I am remove all the character I have to offer.) But if you can't leave it be...then either keep the two trunks that keep drawing you and remove the rest. OR...Find a good location in the yard...air layer the most intriguing of branch for literati...and enjoy the character of the shrub in the landscape. Which is the best of both worlds. Those suckers...if it's grafted will NOT have the contorted feature characteristic. Allowing them to stay just creates a larger scar.

Bonsai is patience...something that leaving a tree on a bench for a few years won't kill the tree. I've two said trees I'm doing just that with. I've wintered them two winters now...with no direction. One is a collected piece I'm allowing to get healthier...another is a late bonsai enthusiast who passed. While it sits on my bench it's not hurting a thing...I would much rather not rush something and later find I went the wrong direction.

Key thing...if you remove the movement of character in those branches treating it as a proper bonsai...it will take a decade to see it back to where you once had it when it first came to you. It's your tree...I would rather you chop all but the two branches before you went that route. But...learning patience a is a key to bonsai. I had come to learn...I don't have to push my own stamp onto material as soon as it arrives. But in time...we can do a graceful dance.

Bottom line...it's your tree. You must listen to your inner self. But...if you remove all the character in the shrub you brought home "for its character" ...you do it an injustice. Because it will take years and years to build it back into the tree. As it is a very slow grower.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Looking at Sorce's vert...his line for the "Funk as he calls it" allows for an interesting shape. If you air layered above it...you could plant the rest in the garden...and do something as a cascade literati I reckon. But...that is at a first fast glance. I've not studied your tree in the least.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@ConorDash going in the direction sorce mentioned...think cascade. Air layer way above that F in funk line. Then, once removed you can cut at an angle. Allowing taper in the trunk...

Not your species of course...but he's thinking Cascade I'm thinking... @sorce ?

 

[Cadillactaste]

The funk is the last tree!
Not using it is not using the best tapered section.

You are not going to gain any more interest in those layered branches by layering them any lower than my red line.

In fact....I would layer them one year at a time starting with the thinnest one, so it remains smallest on the clump....
Until you get to the biggest....
This will help improve their size differences.

Forgive me....

But the virt pic you have posted seems to take everything that is interesting about this tree out of the picture!
I'm Ok with multiple trunks starting above soil line....cuz that IS how they grow!
But it seems a clump is this ones only saving grace.
Thinking of @thumblessprimate1 wiggly clump.

Do these even layer?

Sorce

Yes, they do air layer. I've done research on them when I considered doing my own bonsai. But, decided to just enjoy it. I do like your direction with the funk. Shoot...either air layer...or if no patience for that. Chop it off and just have your final direction of a tree with that Funk cascade.

 

[sorce]

Funk cascade.

That is a possibility I haven't considered.

The Literati thread was going strong when I first saw this.....
So instantly....all those top branches became that in my mind. Off.

And I always liked those low branches for the taper they offer, granted they offer not much for use in design now. I am stuck on not even reaching that part for quite a few years yet, by then, it will be completely different. It can be nurtured to anything by then.

Basically.....

I never saw this as one tree.

It has always been something to create interesting beginnings from.
Yes...even with...or exactly like...

will take years and years to build it back into the tree

Getting the most out of it for me....
Is about 5 crazy bendy trunks....

And working the funk for the future.

The clump is new to me...
And I still can't tell if it is possible to make a good layer out of anyway.

But the funk is where it is at for me.
If just for the taper.

One of those trees where....
If it gave me shit....

I would chop it down to the funk....

Because that is THE best/quickest beginning this tree has to offer.

I understand where the "broom virt" came from....
But I also know the location of the rug you can sweep that Bullshit under!

Faster Further Future Vision.
F3V.

That is the name of my song....
Maybe better understood after its release...hopefully by spring.

Sorce

 

[ConorDash]

The funk is the last tree!
Not using it is not using the best tapered section.

You are not going to gain any more interest in those layered branches by layering them any lower than my red line.

In fact....I would layer them one year at a time starting with the thinnest one, so it remains smallest on the clump....
Until you get to the biggest....
This will help improve their size differences.

Forgive me....

But the virt pic you have posted seems to take everything that is interesting about this tree out of the picture!
I'm Ok with multiple trunks starting above soil line....cuz that IS how they grow!
But it seems a clump is this ones only saving grace.
Thinking of @thumblessprimate1 wiggly clump.

Do these even layer?

Sorce

You are completely right. I don't know why I said I want to keep as much of its growth as possible then with my virt go take it all off! I mean, I would have saved 2 at least with air layering but I was still stupid. I don't know what I have been thinking.
And certainly want to use the side branch for something, as you say, its taper is pretty good. I didn't see that before... Honestly, I've not been drinking (not in the past 2 days at least) why have I been saying so many stupid things lol. You are always welcome to slap some sense in to me Sorce. As is anyone on here.

Im still not that familiar with the clump thing, don't quite understand your idea of laying 1 at a time each year? To be planted all separately, or together in the aforementioned clump? Although if separate, wouldn't they become a forest not clump?

Oh and yes, they layer. I don't think its preferred, but I have read up on that technique inparticular and its possible.

Still reading Cadillacs post and your next one, will reply.

 

[ConorDash]

I think you are trying to hard for a direction. Your proposed virtual drawing of removing all character in a canopy shape trunks by removing all character to the shrub. Are completely opposite of your statement of liking the shape and directions of it.

Here are facts I know...ground growing a tree grows are the quickest way to thicken a trunk and develop a tree...yet, my very own in ground has not thickened...and has not grown much in the years in ground. So pot verses ground. Might as well keep it in the pot as stated by another poster..which thinking about it...I agreed.

I think you really need to either embrace it as it's quirky self. Those two branches keep attracting your eye. I still say...leave it rest until it speaks to you. (it certainly didn't say...here I am remove all the character I have to offer.) But if you can't leave it be...then either keep the two trunks that keep drawing you and remove the rest. OR...Find a good location in the yard...air layer the most intriguing of branch for literati...and enjoy the character of the shrub in the landscape. Which is the best of both worlds. Those suckers...if it's grafted will NOT have the contorted feature characteristic. Allowing them to stay just creates a larger scar.

Bonsai is patience...something that leaving a tree on a bench for a few years won't kill the tree. I've two said trees I'm doing just that with. I've wintered them two winters now...with no direction. One is a collected piece I'm allowing to get healthier...another is a late bonsai enthusiast who passed. While it sits on my bench it's not hurting a thing...I would much rather not rush something and later find I went the wrong direction.

Key thing...if you remove the movement of character in those branches treating it as a proper bonsai...it will take a decade to see it back to where you once had it when it first came to you. It's your tree...I would rather you chop all but the two branches before you went that route. But...learning patience a is a key to bonsai. I had come to learn...I don't have to push my own stamp onto material as soon as it arrives. But in time...we can do a graceful dance.

Bottom line...it's your tree. You must listen to your inner self. But...if you remove all the character in the shrub you brought home "for its character" ...you do it an injustice. Because it will take years and years to build it back into the tree. As it is a very slow grower.

Yeah, as in previous post to Sorce, I see that error now. I really don't know what got in to me. I apologise .
Would have been very disrespectful to the tree. Moving on from my stupidness.

I would like to take advantage of that funk branch. The pic you posted seems like a good direction that that branch could go in to. I could really see that. Would you mean air layering that cascade branch off by itself or keep its little branch with it too? Not sure 2 branches for cascade will work? They are fused together a bit.

I think maybe Ill focus attention on that 1 lower branch for cascade or something similar. Clearly I just don't know what to do with the rest of the top of it. I want to take advantage of the trunk one day, because I really like it, but it has a lot of growth on top that I need to make a plan for first, and as you say, patience. Just I dont like that feeling of wasting a spring or a year, if I could have done something about it and used that time for growth. or for an air layer.
Which exactly is the Funk line @sorce ? I see the red line for layerings, the green if I wanted to air layer the whole top off for the clump, the funk I cant quite tell what you are pointing at?

 

[Cadillactaste]

When I made the cut. I would make the cut so the scar is at the back. So you need to decide which is the nicer "front" if you did the literati cascade. I would NOT air layer that. But use the existing trunk as taper. Something these are not known for. But we appreciate in bonsai to a degree.

That said...if you air layered...it does steal energy from the main plant. So I would only do one at the main trunk above my suggested cut. Then severing it when the time comes and then clean up that lower cut. Then...if you wish at a later date take more air layers from this shrub it won't effect the health of the lower tree that is there. But...honestly, I think the other part would make a great landscape shrub that you should embrace and allow all to enjoy without the stress of trying to fit this square peg into a circle following bonsai rules which it was never meant to follow.

 

[Cadillactaste]

As for the upper trunk on the cascade...honestly I would leave it for now. Why not...rule breaker remember.

If it is grafted...not anytime soon...but you may wish to ground layer that "funk style." But allow it to strengthen from previous incidents you plan on doing to it.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Biggest thing don't make the cut to create a reverse taper...

 

[ConorDash]

When I made the cut. I would make the cut so the scar is at the back. So you need to decide which is the nicer "front" if you did the literati cascade. I would NOT air layer that. But use the existing trunk as taper. Something these are not known for. But we appreciate in bonsai to a degree.

That said...if you air layered...it does steal energy from the main plant. So I would only do one at the main trunk above my suggested cut. Then severing it when the time comes and then clean up that lower cut. Then...if you wish at a later date take more air layers from this shrub it won't effect the health of the lower tree that is there. But...honestly, I think the other part would make a great landscape shrub that you should embrace and allow all to enjoy without the stress of trying to fit this square peg into a circle following bonsai rules which it was never meant to follow.
View attachment 133494

I like your plan. I don't know why Im finding it so hard to wrap my head around. Its funny really. I read and read and comment on others, think of other's trees and I can follow perfectly fine how they arrived there or what others plans work out as but for my own, or for this in particular, I'm finding it difficult. I feel more stupid than usual.

I didn't think of keeping the trunk, cut in half, to supply the cascading branches. I did really want to keep that trunk, the whole thick section of it looks really good to me, the curves in it and mostly healed scars. But, I guess without anything else, its just a trunk and doesn't have much going for it. With making that cut and the top of the plant being its own plant, it'd have reverse taper. A skinny waist and fat top. But then you say it could be ground layered after.
Its just chopping up that nice trunk which I loved.. But the cascade that comes out of it would be nice. I could really pick that, plus strong roots as it wouldn't be air layer.

How can a cut on top, create reverse taper for the bottom tree?

 

[Cadillactaste]

You misunderstood me. You won't create a reverse taper unless when you make your angle cut...UNLESS you make it at the wrong degree angle. That is all...an air layer will NOT create a reverse taper. They are used to get rid of them. By going above the taper issue.

You have no idea what is beneath that soil...you maybe able to keep the roots it's on. I'm just saying you may find something less than appealing. Then if that the case ground layer.

You need to go buy something else to distract you...and leave this be to chew on all the advice given. Because you can go in different directions. Shoot...the upper branch you like. Maybe you want literati with it. Honest...you need to let that gerbil slow down. He is spinning on his wheel going no where fast.

 

[sorce]

You'd have to whack this back pretty far for taper too...

But you sure have the buds!

My thinking is...
Airlayering the thinnest branch first will freeze its thickness...
Keep it the smallest. If do that and whack that crossing one this year....THAtS IT!
(except for excessive bud removal)

Then when the next biggest one is ready.
Layer it.

By the time you get to the biggest one...it will be sufficiently bigger than them all...

You will have achieved you differences in thickness, safely removed the layers in successive years, and promoted back buds on each to begin training new trunk segments on the clump.

Once the clump is having a year it can go wild...layer it off...year 6?

Then you can get down to business with the funk. Which you will have improved that taper in, and maybe even started some of its own branches.
Improved its Nebari over the years....

Long term.

But wicked!

Sorce

 

[Cattwooduk]

I've been reading all this with great interest. I really like the idea of cutting above the lowest branch for a cascade style. On the other hand you will be cutting away a good deal of very interesting tree, so I would air layer one or two of the top branches for the literati first. Then again some of the other suggestions on how to make use of the whole tree are interesting as well.

I think Cadillac has the best idea for now... let your mind rest for now and keep it healthy for a while, have a look at it every now and then until it speaks to you clearly. At the moment the desperation to do something with it is more likely to result in feeling gutted at making the wrong decision, and sorry for the tree.

I went outside to look at my contorta which I've got in a large patio pot just to see if there is any potential there. These plants have so much going on with direction etc I looked at it for a good half an hour and couldn't settle on anything just for the sake of using it. I didn't buy it with the intent of using it for bonsai, so for now it's safe in it's container with some crocus popping up around the base. Maybe one day!

My girlfriend's parents just bought a new house with a pretty big one of these in the front garden, I think it's at least 8 foot maybe a little more. Hasn't been pruned in years, I know generally you don't because of their natural form but this guy really needs some tidying up! I might have another look next week and see if I can identify some possible air layer locations.

 

[ConorDash]

You misunderstood me. You won't create a reverse taper unless when you make your angle cut...UNLESS you make it at the wrong degree angle. That is all...an air layer will NOT create a reverse taper. They are used to get rid of them. By going above the taper issue.

You have no idea what is beneath that soil...you maybe able to keep the roots it's on. I'm just saying you may find something less than appealing. Then if that the case ground layer.

You need to go buy something else to distract you...and leave this be to chew on all the advice given. Because you can go in different directions. Shoot...the upper branch you like. Maybe you want literati with it. Honest...you need to let that gerbil slow down. He is spinning on his wheel going no where fast.

I agree. Im going to see BobbyLane tomorrow, getting some trees from him, some he just wants rid and some for a cost, so they will take my attention away, I would bet.
You are right, I will just be patient.

I cant tell if all this advice and these options are more so than you would get with a usual tree, because its such an unusual species, or maybe im just inexperienced and so it seems like a lot to me?
I will let it go for a bit, and wait .
But I appreciate this all and it'll be here for me to reread, many times!

 

[ConorDash]

View attachment 133522

You'd have to whack this back pretty far for taper too...

But you sure have the buds!

My thinking is...
Airlayering the thinnest branch first will freeze its thickness...
Keep it the smallest. If do that and whack that crossing one this year....THAtS IT!
(except for excessive bud removal)

Then when the next biggest one is ready.
Layer it.

By the time you get to the biggest one...it will be sufficiently bigger than them all...

You will have achieved you differences in thickness, safely removed the layers in successive years, and promoted back buds on each to begin training new trunk segments on the clump.

Once the clump is having a year it can go wild...layer it off...year 6?

Then you can get down to business with the funk. Which you will have improved that taper in, and maybe even started some of its own branches.
Improved its Nebari over the years....

Long term.

But wicked!

Sorce

Thats very interesting Sorce. How did you see that? Lol, I can't picture that kinda thing, well not yet any way! And your air layering over years makes more sense now, I get it.
I like the structure of the plan over years, Im not afraid to start a 10 year long project, Just want a good clear plan.
I will be patient for now and think it through.
Thank you for very much for your advice mate.

Although, 1 think.. Do you think it would benefit from a repot, whilst I'm being patient? A repot would allow me to get it in potentially better substrate (seems like it is in 100% organic, bark and.. stuff, at the moment). Not saying its current soil is bad but maybe it could be better. But for main reason, i get to see whats under the surface. That way whilst being patient, I have better info on what I am dealing with?

I've been reading all this with great interest. I really like the idea of cutting above the lowest branch for a cascade style. On the other hand you will be cutting away a good deal of very interesting tree, so I would air layer one or two of the top branches for the literati first. Then again some of the other suggestions on how to make use of the whole tree are interesting as well.

I think Cadillac has the best idea for now... let your mind rest for now and keep it healthy for a while, have a look at it every now and then until it speaks to you clearly. At the moment the desperation to do something with it is more likely to result in feeling gutted at making the wrong decision, and sorry for the tree.

I went outside to look at my contorta which I've got in a large patio pot just to see if there is any potential there. These plants have so much going on with direction etc I looked at it for a good half an hour and couldn't settle on anything just for the sake of using it. I didn't buy it with the intent of using it for bonsai, so for now it's safe in it's container with some crocus popping up around the base. Maybe one day!

My girlfriend's parents just bought a new house with a pretty big one of these in the front garden, I think it's at least 8 foot maybe a little more. Hasn't been pruned in years, I know generally you don't because of their natural form but this guy really needs some tidying up! I might have another look next week and see if I can identify some possible air layer locations.

I will be patient . I was going to say, as I was reading your last sentence, it is growing wild and untammed, probably a good few air layering locations. Free stock

 

[Timbo]

Not sure which pots you mean, I didnt find any pots which looked like they had fully holed bottom?

Sorry, I was talking about the propagation flats/trays Bonsai Nut showed pictures of.
They had a few sizes: https://www.stuewe.com/products/anderson.php

 

[AlainK]

The problem (?) with this kind of contorted tree is that you can't really think of a design.

Kind of a free-wheeling bonsai. In a way, not so different from old trees in a pot from centuries ago as far as you look at the bare tree, but the leaves are very big in the summer, and not easy to reduce.

A late winter display when the straight vertical yellowish catkins hang from the twisted branches. Why not if it evokes an emotion?

 

[sorce]

Yeah....I think a repot would be good.

Sorce