Complete newbie - growing from seed (UK, zone 9a)

[ForeverRaynning]

Almost three weeks and no signs of life from the pines yet. Just moved them to the top of the fridge, without the humidity dome. Will see if that coaxes them out, just need to remember they’re up there incase they any do sprout.

I know outside is best but we’re still getting frosts here, azalea’s already taken a hit and the beech aren’t showing any signs of life yet either… so its not really spring-y out there just yet. Do we think they’d be ok in the conservatory on the meantime? It gets the most direct and ambient light, south facing, not heated the same as rest of the house but no doubt warmer than outside and will at least protect from frost. Having said that, the trays do have that dome on that may provide the wind rain and frost protection whilst allowing as much sun as possible? But not agaisnt the low temps. I suppose thats where hardening off comes in? Will have to do some reading on that too.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

I THINK, I see one of the seeds poking through the soil, so 1/11 has at least started sprouting, hopefully. When should I move it? I know they’ll need sunlight, but don’t know if any of the others will start sprouting if I leave it where it is now or if they’ll continue to sprout if i move it, beginning to wonder if its been too cold in the conservatory for them to sprout? Don’t want to move them into there and have them die due to the temperature drop overnight. I do have a windowsill in the kitchen thats south facing but not convinced it gets as much sun as the consevatory or upstairs windows.

How hardy will the new shoots be? How quickly will the lack of sunlight be an issue? Can I get away with leaving it a day or two to see if any of the others start to come through, then move it? At what point do they need to be moved, now when just a hint of seed is poking through or once its broken through properly? (I have a lot of questions, sorry!) If it is the increased temp on top of the fridge thats suddenly got them growing and not just a fluke, then moving it back into the colder conservatory may stop the others from germinating?

Just looked at the weather forcast and its going to be cloudy all week, assume that’ll also affect how much light they’ll get. I’m probably overthinking it. Just with only having one seed sprouting at the moment I’m nervous to make a mistake and lose it after all the waiting. At least now I know when I plant the next lot that I’m best putting them on top of the fridge right away.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

Go to big box stores, find the biggest trunks, get your hands dirty, watch YouTube bonsai artists who practice different styles, roam the forums, and find something that snips your bud. Only way this is fun is if it gives you butterflies!

I'd you want to grow from seed that's totally cool, but you'll likely want some big plants quickly, then more, and more...there is one gentleman on here, I'm not sure of his username, but he grows lots from seed, and I'm sure your can search the forum and find pretty quick. Pretty sure his level on this site is Masterpiece, or something similar. Anyway, have fun.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Tiny tree shed its seed yesterday! In the evening the leaves (needles?) started to curl into an upward position, this morning they are still the same, is this an indication it needs watering? Worried about root rot and damping off and struggle to tell when the coir feels dry so haven’t watered it again yet.

 

[Shibui]

Most pines do not require stratification. I know that JBP germinate well without any cold treatment. P. halapensis is from Mediterranean area so they do not need to cope with cold winters.

Pines seed germination seems to be designed to frustrate growers. They always hold off until you've given up hope then start to pop up.
Pine seedlings do not die from temp drop overnight. Remember they have been doing this for millions of years without the help of kitchen window sills or amateur seed growers. Even tiny seedlings have antifreeze built in to cope with few cool nights.
Sun is important. They will survive indoors for a few weeks if necessary but will be much better with some sun. The remaining seeds will also germinate in sun. Even if it is cooler out there they will still germinate when the temp is right for them. Just make sure you monitor soil moisture as they will probably dry out quicker outside in sun.


Cotyledons curling down is normal.
Sunlight is antibiotic and helps avoid damping off and other fungal problems.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

How would I go about transfering them outdoors? Does that need to be done gradually? Will rain be an issue? Do I just pop them outside and hope for the best? When I get plant more seeds, should I just put those straight outside and hope they grow eventually?

I have a lot of questions and beginner worries about transferring them outside, despite knowing its the best place for them.

Update - put them outside, its about 11C, high of 12C today, also possibly 3mm rain around 2pm ish so ~1.5 hour from now) presume I need to bring them back in later (an hour? A few hours?) and repeat, increasing the time outside for a while (how many days? How much time increase per day? When do you decide they’ve been acclimitised long enough?) and then just leave them out 24/7?

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Had them outside for 3h (no idea if thats too long or what), also watered them but not sure if the stem browning at the base is damping off, in which case watering may have been a bad idea. Just bought them back in, will put them out again tomorrow for longer. Its cloudy all week so hopefully the milder weather makes hardening off a bit easier than having to suddenly deal with direct, unfiltered sun.

When I plant the next sets of seeds, I’m tempted to put them straight outside? Think I just need to learn to be patient (and worry/fret/panic less easily), more pines may sprout once the temps rise and the new seeds may also sprout outside too as they would out in the wild. Just need to remember to keep checking on them so they don’t dry out (but we get a lot of rain here anyway). Will have a look what gets planted next and do some reading on where they grow naturally, what sort of spring temperatures and things.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Just checked on the seeds in the fridge, for two of them the paper towel had some black on it (mould, maybe?), tore that section off on one (due to be planted next week anyway so… it’ll be fine I reckon) and the other I replaced the paper towel entirely as it won’t come out of cold strat till the start of July so didn’t want to risk it (it also had a lot more of it). The third set were clear! Its possible they’ve been too wet this entire time but what will be will be. Need to just take a more laid back approach and let nature do it’s thing. If anything grows, yay. If not, lessons will have no doubt been learned.

 

[Shibui]

How would I go about transfering them outdoors? Does that need to be done gradually?

Temperature (assuming that's C) is no problem for any species let alone something hardy like pines. Pine seedlings should have no problem with cold even below freezing for brief periods. Seedlings do not need babying or protection. All their forebears have got along just fine when they germinated outdoors in the forests and yours can survive outside too.
The real risk with indoor to outdoor is sunburn. Plants develop sunscreen the way our skins adjust to sun. Skin that's rarely seen sun suddenly exposed on a sunny beach will burn but when gradually exposed a bit more each day will take much more to sunburn. Leaves have similar adjustment mechanism but need time to develop hardiness. I don't know if there's any exposure limits because there's so many variables - latitude, UV strength, cloud cover, wind, water, etc, etc.
I think 3 hours for a couple of days will be a conservative start to hardening yours seedlings. 4-6 hours in a few day's time for another few days then full days the following week. It is likely the sun is not particularly strong in your area at this time of year so you might even get away with straight out in full sun this early in the year.

Browning base of the stem is normal. If you think a bit you'll realise it has to turn brown at some stage or all pines would have light green trunks? Not normal is the whole seedling suddenly toppling over sideways or the base of the stem getting thinner than the rest.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Temperature (assuming that's C) is no problem for any species let alone something hardy like pines. Pine seedlings should have no problem with cold even below freezing for brief periods. Seedlings do not need babying or protection. All their forebears have got along just fine when they germinated outdoors in the forests and yours can survive outside too.
The real risk with indoor to outdoor is sunburn. Plants develop sunscreen the way our skins adjust to sun. Skin that's rarely seen sun suddenly exposed on a sunny beach will burn but when gradually exposed a bit more each day will take much more to sunburn. Leaves have similar adjustment mechanism but need time to develop hardiness. I don't know if there's any exposure limits because there's so many variables - latitude, UV strength, cloud cover, wind, water, etc, etc.
I think 3 hours for a couple of days will be a conservative start to hardening yours seedlings. 4-6 hours in a few day's time for another few days then full days the following week. It is likely the sun is not particularly strong in your area at this time of year so you might even get away with straight out in full sun this early in the year.

Browning base of the stem is normal. If you think a bit you'll realise it has to turn brown at some stage or all pines would have light green trunks? Not normal is the whole seedling suddenly toppling over sideways or the base of the stem getting thinner than the rest.

Thank you for the extra info and encouragement! I’m mostly worried about transplant shock, but its warmer this coming week so probably won’t be too bad. My weather app also has UV index listed and even on the warmest day with the most sun next week the highest the UV index would get is 4 which is just ‘moderate’. May even leave them out a bit longer today, was tempted to just leave them out and see what happened yesterday but decided to just bring them back inside eventuallly. Today is actually sunny, still some cloud cover but lots of direct sunshine as well. So placed it in a sunny spot, will have to monitor the spot I want to put them in as a more permanent spot to see how much sun it actually gets, its shady at the minute and I know a lot of the species I’m growing need full sun.

I knew the trunk would start turning brown (presumably it starts devoping a thicker outer layer, hense the colour change?) at some point, just didn’t expect it to start this early on, but it certainly makes sense.

 

[Paradox]

I hope you have some bigger trees to work on.
You are going to wait and watch these grow for years before you can do much with them or make them into bonsai.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

I hope you have some bigger trees to work on.
You are going to wait and watch these grow for years before you can do much with them or make them into bonsai.

I don’t yet. These seeds where just given to me by my grandad so have just been my starting point to dip my toe in and see if anything would even grow.

What would be a good place to start in terms of bigger trees, nursery stock? Pre-styled trees (that feels too easy, theres presumably a big difference between maintaining a bonsai and training your own)? Air layers? I don’t want to dive too deeply in and end up overwhelmed, growing from seed gives me lots of time to learn, though I suppose its better to do said learning via experience rather than pure reading.

 

[Paradox]

I don’t yet. These seeds where just given to me by my grandad so have just been my starting point to dip my toe in and see if anything would even grow.

What would be a good place to start in terms of bigger trees, nursery stock? Pre-styled trees (that feels too easy, theres presumably a big difference between maintaining a bonsai and training your own)? Air layers? I don’t want to dive too deeply in and end up overwhelmed, growing from seed gives me lots of time to learn, though I suppose its better to do said learning via experience rather than pure reading.

Yea landscape nursery stock is, imo a very good place for a new person to start. You can get something relatively inexpensive to start with so that if it dies, it's not a big loss. You will kill trees on the road to learning bonsai, it's the price we all pay along the way.

Go look around an find something with a decent sized trunk with movement.

Procumbens nana or green mound juniper are a good species for a beginner to learn with. Be careful of getting too many different species at once in the beginning as that can get overwhelming.

Don't be afraid to ask if a particular species is worth getting for bonsai development if you come across something that looks like it might be promising but you aren't sure. Many people buy something only to find out later it wasn't a good buy.

Also consider your living circumstances. Do you have a yard and some place to overwinter an outdoor tree or are you in an apartment with no outdoor property of your own?

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Yea landscape nursery stock is, imo a very good place for a new person to start. You can get something relatively inexpensive to start with so that if it dies, it's not a big loss. You will kill trees on the road to learning bonsai, it's the price we all pay along the way.

Go look around an find something with a decent sized trunk with movement.

Procumbens nana or green mound juniper are a good species for a beginner to learn with. Be careful of getting too many different species at once in the beginning as that can get overwhelming.

Don't be afraid to ask if a particular species is worth getting for bonsai development if you come across something that looks like it might be promising but you aren't sure. Many people buy something only to find out later it wasn't a good buy.

Also consider your living circumstances. Do you have a yard and some place to overwinter an outdoor tree or are you in an apartment with no outdoor property of your own?

Had a look and found a nursury less than an hour away that apparently stocks Procumbens nana, so will have to have a drive out during the week if I can. Will see what they have, they’ll no doubt have other species as well I can have a look at, something will surely catch my eye.

At the moment I’m at my parents house so have access to the garden (good size, south facing). However I am on a waitlist to move into an apartment, if I’m lucky I may get access to outdoor space there. I’m hoping I do, not sure what the permissions are on the grounds, if its tenant owned or not, can’t see why I wouldn’t be able to get permission from whoever owns it to put my trees somewhere suitable, but no idea when I’ll be moving.

 

[Paradox]

Had a look and found a nursury less than an hour away that apparently stocks Procumbens nana, so will have to have a drive out during the week if I can. Will see what they have, they’ll no doubt have other species as well I can have a look at, something will surely catch my eye.

At the moment I’m at my parents house so have access to the garden (good size, south facing). However I am on a waitlist to move into an apartment, if I’m lucky I may get access to outdoor space there. I’m hoping I do, not sure what the permissions are on the grounds, if its tenant owned or not, can’t see why I wouldn’t be able to get permission from whoever owns it to put my trees somewhere suitable, but no idea when I’ll be moving.

Overwintering a tree can be as simple as mulching the pot in against the foundation of a house. Just bury the pot in mulch.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Sounds simple enough, I’m sure I’ll be able to overwinter them once needed.

Clouded over again this afternoon so will leave my seeds outside for a bit longer, been 3 hours so far, will probably give them another hour or two. Though it’s forecasting a thunderstorm tomorrow (probably just end up being a bit of rain tbh, we never get proper storms here) so won’t leave them out all day till later in the week just to be safe. Aim to leave them out 24/7 by the 8th maybe as that is when the Larch and Sweetgum are being planted (and will just put those straight outside and see what happens, may save faffing about hardening the seedlings off).

 

[RoadManDenDron]

I would recommend joining your local bonsai society,

The national bonsai society (southport) and the wirral bonsai society (birkenhead) are both great clubs,

Both also hold monthly workshops were you can work on trees with more experienced members

 

[ForeverRaynning]

I joined the Facebook group for my local one, made a post, and immediately got told seed was not a way to start Bonsai (despite my post asking about air layering advice, I just mentioned the seeds as background) and linked a site with ‘better’ information (that was a pain to navigate and I found nothing useful) then someone else asked if I lived locally as the society were doing an airlayering workshop this month (which I think was members only anyway) and then I deleted the post and quickly left the group.

I’m near completely housebound due to mental health (leaving only for appointments) so anything like that is just too much for me to take on at the moment. I’d also be considerably younger than everyone there so would feel extra out of place (I struggle socially in-person enough as is).

I get that it’d probably be a good idea to join one but I think that's something I’d have to work on further down the line, possibly with social support in place.

 

[Shibui]

What would be a good place to start in terms of bigger trees, nursery stock? Pre-styled trees (that feels too easy, theres presumably a big difference between maintaining a bonsai and training your own)? Air layers? I don’t want to dive too deeply in and end up overwhelmed, growing from seed gives me lots of time to learn, though I suppose its better to do said learning via experience rather than pure reading.

Growing from seed takes time - way more than most beginners anticipate but it is a good way to dip a toe in the water of horticulture and learn without costing an arm and leg. Growing from seed also means we can take all the credit for success as well as all the responsibility when something doesn't work as expected.

Layers are a way to start with thicker trunks without a financial outlay. Downside is finding suitable material. Not every branch will yield a great trunk for bonsai. In fact, I've rarely seen a great bonsai from material layered off landscape trees. Good starting material is much harder to find than you think.

Nursery stock will require some financial outlay but not usually too high. Downside is that almost all nursery stock is grown with straight, vertical trunks and roots have rarely had attention so developing good nebari takes time, effort and some special techniques.

Purchasing pre-bonsai or ready made bonsai will cost more but (one hopes) the trees have had all the preliminary work done so should be quicker and easier to convert to real bonsai.

We have not mentioned collected material. Many garden shrubs can be dug, potted and then, after a year or 2 for recovery, styled as bonsai. Lots of great bonsai come this way. Keep an eye open for local demolitions, home extensions, garden renovations, etc. Downside is that you'll need to be brave enough to approach the owner or project manager and explain why you want to take those plants away.

I joined the Facebook group for my local one, made a post, and immediately got told seed was not a way to start Bonsai (despite my post asking about air layering advice, I just mentioned the seeds as background) and linked a site with ‘better’ information (that was a pain to navigate and I found nothing useful) then someone else asked if I lived locally as the society were doing an airlayering workshop this month (which I think was members only anyway) and then I deleted the post and quickly left the group.

Fortunately I keep well away from Fb. Unfortunately some people think they can say whatever they feel online. I've found most clubs much more welcoming and inclusive at in person meetings but that's not always for everyone. Having someone show you stuff in person is so much easier and quicker but if that's not your thing you'll have to work out other ways to get your info.

Hoping that pursuing bonsai will help with the social and emotional issues. You are certainly welcome here.

 

[Paradox]

Fortunately there is lots of information on the internet but as you've already experienced, some is hard to navigate and sometimes it's hard to glean the good from the bad.

If you like to read, in addition to BNut, I found bonsai books to be helpful when I was starting out, just to get basic information. There are also a lot of good videos online too. You'll have lots of questions. Bonsai has so much to learn, it is seemingly endless which is one thing that is nice about it. There is always more to learn.

Autism often makes in person social interaction awkward. One step at a time and one day at a time. No need to rush. I like to say bonsai is a marathon, not a sprint. This also applies to many things in life too.