Complete newbie - growing from seed (UK, zone 9a)

[ForeverRaynning]

Hello everyone!

So I’m completely new to this. Never had any real interest in bonsai before but my grandad gave me a bonsai growing kit he’d recieved the other year (he’s 90 and has an absolutely amazing green thumb with veg and flowers, but said he won’t get much use out of the kit at his age). I’ve one houseplant that I’ve kept alive for over a year and thats about it.

I decided to follow the instructions from sheffields in terms of scarification, stratification and sowing. A lot of the kit reviews mention only having success with one set of seeds (pinus halipensis) so I went looking for more reputable/detailed instructions. This may have been a mistake, I’m not sure.

So far I have planted the pines after a 24h soak in water. They are in a seed tray with a humidity dome in my south facing conservatory (but the blinds have been down so not been getting that much sun, opening them a bit yesterday incase the extra heat from the sun may help). They have been there for a little over 2 weeks and nothing has come up yet. I watered them yesterday, first time, the dome always has condensation so I assume the soil was still wet but watered anyway just to be safe as I was a but worried I should have been watering them (I did bottom watering as heard thats better for the roots and to not disturb the seeds). Also just opened the vents on the dome today incase some air is needed. The temp will drop in there quite a bit overnights but I figured trees grow outside normally anyway and would go through temperature fluctuations, but I know germination is usually done with heat mats or warm areas, the conservatory just gets the most sun.

The other species are in the stratification stage in tubs with wet paper towel, the larch, redbud and sweetgum are in the fridge, the junipers or just on my desk in my room for warm stratification before they go in for cold in a few months. When i open the tubs, the towel is still wet, theres no puddles of water, but the tubs do smell. Is this ok or have I rotted all my seeds and failed before I’ve even started? I struggle to know what ‘moist/damp, not wet’ actually means/feels like.

Basically just need advice/support/encouragement on if I’m doing things even remotely correctly (and maybe some guidance if I’m not). Getting a bit worried I’ve cocked it all up. I’m autistic and struggle socially so I’d appreciate a gentle approach/tone as I do get discouraged/upset easily, especially if I have done something wrong.

I know it’ll be years before they can even become bonsai, but I’m ok with that. This is more of an experiment to see if I can even get anything to grow at the moment. At least I have plenty of time to learn bonsai techniques and things. I’m quite enamoured with the thought of my own little trees, even just getting tiny seedlings. I know a lot of people start with already established trees but I think that would be a bit much for me right now.

Happy to be here! I’ve added pictures of the little tubs and of the setup for the pines to show you all.

 

[Carol 83]

Welcome to the forum. Wishing you the best of luck with your seeds, make your Grandpa proud!

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Welcome and good luck!

 

[Shibui]

I grow lots of different trees from seed but tend to try to KISS (keep it simple stupid)
As you mentioned, tree seeds have been germinating outdoors for millions of years without the aid of humidity domes, heat pads, etc, etc.
Pines do not generally need stratification so I just plant the seeds and leave the trays outside, protect from birds and rodents and water occasionally until they germinate. Most species will jot worry about a few cool nights or even occasional frost. They get that out in the forest and seem to cope.
Conditions outside are generally way more plant friendly that anything you can set up inside. Manage the watering and that's it.

Many people still manage to germinate seeds indoors. The urge to grow is very strong in most species and they will usually grow despite what we do to them.

For species that require cold stratification I try to sow seed early winter when it would naturally end up on the ground and let winter do the work. There seems to be way less problems outside than in plastic bags/tubs in the fridge in my experience. Unfortunately you've probably missed the natural opportunity this year so the fridge is going to be your next best option though germination will be quite late if you need 3 months stratification.
Mould and rot have been the biggest problems I've had when stratifying in the fridge. Not sure why that's so when it doesn't tend to happen outside? Hydrogen peroxide is a quick, easy and safe way to sanitise seeds and substrate for fridge stratification. The usual mix is 1 part hydrogen peroxide to 4 parts water but I've seen recommendations to soak seeds in 3% H2O2. Most available peroxide is already at 3%. You can find Hydrogen peroxide at the supermarket or pharmacy as it is used in cleaning.
Treat the seed, whatever you've mixed them with and the containers/bags. The mixture may bubble up as the H2O2 reacts with organic matter. Treatment should be effective immediately but you can also let the seeds soak in the mix for a few hours or overnight. There's some info that it may even help with germination of some species.
After treatment, drain off excess water and return the seed to the fridge.
You should be safe to treat the seeds you've already started but check to see if there's any signs of roots. If you do see roots use the lower concentration in case a strong solution might harm new roots - or use the low concentration anyway. I'm pretty sure it will still do the job.

Seed does not usually require good light but your seedlings will. Germinating outside also reduces the problems associated with transition from indoor to outdoor and sunlight. Definitely get your seedlings outside as soon as possible after germination.

Growing from seed is long and can have some pitfalls along the way but it is a fascinating way to start. Good luck with your attempts.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Hi! You have found the right place! I got started with a seed kit in 2020, so I'm happy to see you going for it! If it weren't for bonsainut.com, many of my trees would have died a long time ago. There are many people here with a wealth of knowledge who are very willing to help. @Shibui is one of the ones that helped me along the way. Growing from seeds has been very rewarding for me.

Here are a few of my projects where I'm growing trees from seeds. You might find lessons learned that could help your trees (probably what not to do). Good luck!

Sweet gum: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/wulfskaars-liquidambars-sweetgum-from-seeds.53087/

Japanese Black Pine: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/damping-off.46132/

Sequoia: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/wulfskaars-tiny-sequoia-grove.61220/

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Thank you all for the replies!

KISS definitly makes a lot of sense, I am prone to overthinking and working myself up over little things that often have simple solutions, so will try and keep that philosophy in my mind. Maybe bonsai will teach me a few things about how to deal with/approach other things in life

The seeds were in sealed plastic bags when I got them so hopefully they’re relatively clean. I just have them under some wet kitchen roll/paper towel in those plastic tubs, spaced out so i can see if any sprout easily. Hard to tell if the smell is just due to them being wet seeds or if somethings off, there's nothing on the paper towel to indicate any kind of bacterial or fungal growth as far as I can tell. They don’t have air holes in, not sure if adding any may help? They do get condensation.

As for putting them outside, I do have space for them, would have to make sure the dog isn’t too interested, she’s left them alone where they are but once outside, growing and uncovered it may be a different story! Inside is just easier for me to check and remember. Also a bit warmer. Its quite cloudy, cool and rainy here (I’d say an average of 10C/50F) and also a touch windy so not sure how seedling friendly it’ll be out there at the moment, I’d imagine they’re quite fragile (forests probably lessen the wind on the ground, they’d be mucb much more exposed to the elementa here)? Also due to move out at somepoint and may not have easy access to outdoor space due to being in an apartment, but will cross that bridge when I come to it, I know its far from ideal.

Just hope something grows. No sign of life from the pines just yet, can’t see roots out the bottom of any pots or anything either (the cells are clear which is helpful). Is it possible to have planted them upside down or too deep? I did pointy side down, not very deep, a few mm of coir covering them, didn’t compact the coir much when adding it to the trays so maybe a decent amount of air pockets come to thinkmofnit (they do have condecation on the inside below surface level) The larch and sweetgum get planted in a couple weeks, the redbud in a couple months and the junipers won’t be till at least December or February (found a paper done in the UK on Commen Juniper seed germination, how long to warm stratify before cold, so followng the longest timeframe as that yielded the best results and I only have 4 seeds, if any have a chance of making it here in the UK I’d suspect it to be those given they grow here naturally, but heard they can be a right pain to germinate, think that maybe mentioned chemical scarification, I just soaked them in water as per sheffields instructions)

Anyway, thats a large enough wall of text for now. Thanks again! If anything sprouts maybe I’ll update you all or start a sort of diary-type thread.

 

[Baku1875]

Good to hear that destiny has brought you down the bonsai path, it's usually a chance event. Learning seed germination is good to begin building a repertoire of skills and experience, especially for species that do not root from cuttings or air layers easily.

Shibui's post is chock full of quality information.

I always like to say that horticulture skills come FIRST in bonsai.
-Seed germination
-propagation via cuttings
-propagation via grafting and air layering
-annual individual care/watering/fertilizing of the species of plants you are working with
-learning about inexpensive nursery style soil mixes for development(you should definitely 'dig' into this and learn to mix your own soil, it's also much cheaper)
-the relationship between soil mix, sun exposure, and your watering frequency, it's similar to the exposure triangle in photography (ISO, Exposure time, aperture). Understanding those variables and adjusting your future trees accordingly via trial and error is what will really take you to the next level when it comes to adapting your practices. Your microclimate is unique and you will need to learn how to 'swim' with the current so to speak.

Next step while you wait on those seeds to sprout, find some trees in your area and get some cuttings (with permission from your neighbors if it isn't your tree of course!). You can learn a lot by experimenting with plants that already thrive in your area, and of course, it's free. I discovered my love for bougainvillea, ficus hibiscus and barbados cherry from noodling around with various branches from local trees until I figured out how to get them to root at a high % rate.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Next step while you wait on those seeds to sprout, find some trees in your area and get some cuttings (with permission from your neighbors if it isn't your tree of course!). You can learn a lot by experimenting with plants that already thrive in your area, and of course, it's free. I discovered my love for bougainvillea, ficus hibiscus and barbados cherry from noodling around with various branches from local trees until I figured out how to get them to root at a high % rate.

Ooh, well we do have a lovely azalea in the front garden, apparently been there the whole time we’ve lived here but I only really noticed it this year (but then again I don’t get out much). A quick internet search tells me they can be propagated via cuttings (and also that they are bonsai-able)? That may be an easy enough route to go down since we already own it. My neighbour has two trees I can think of, no idea what types or how to take cuttinga from them (if they can even be propegated that way, or if he’ll let me, ones in the border hedge so not sure if we sort of partially own that as well).

Is there a recommended time to take and propegate via cuttings? I’m sure I can find information online, just nice to ask others here. Will have to do some reading on the subject.

Update - one’s a Beech (and infact the border hedge is the same, just been kept as a hedge instead) and the other one is a Rowan/Mountain Ash.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Sounds like cuttings from Rowan’s usually need a young tree to take the cutting from to be successful, and Beech are ridiculously hard to propegate via cuttings also (if at all possible, the RHS only mentions propegation via seed or grafting onto another plant?).

Not sure on Azalea’s as there seems to be a lot of varietys, but I see propegation by cuttings mentioned a lot. My grandad will likely have a lot of knowledge on this sorta thing I imagine, he’s had his allotment/plot (rented gardening space) going on 70 years and grows flowers like roses and chrysanthemums alongside the fruit and veg (and a quick internet search says chrysanthemums propagate via cuttings).

 

[RoadManDenDron]

One of my first air layers was a beech, so at least it's possible! maybe cuttings and seeds are an easier starting point,

But if you feel brave could try and air layer, especially once you have done a couple you will realise its not as daunting as it seems

I'd recommend joining/ attending your local bonsai club, depending where you are there are quite a few in the NW,

You will get the best local knowledge at the club but there are also thousands of posts on here with all kinds of information that can help your journey.

Maybe you could check out the discount section at your local garden centre, or see what is knocking around the allotment, many tree seeds sprout in unwanted places around the allotments, mine is over run with field maples!

Welcome to the nuthouse and Best of luck with your bonsai journey!

Edit; oh yea and moist/damp but not wet = if you squeeze it in your hand till no more water runs out

 

[Shibui]

One of my first air layers was a beech, so at least it's possible! maybe cuttings and seeds are an easier starting point,

Beech layers not difficult. Cuttings more difficult. Seeds relatively easy.

Not sure on Azalea’s as there seems to be a lot of varietys, but I see propegation by cuttings mentioned a lot.

Azalea ridiculously easy as cuttings. Recommended time is usually autumn but I get good results all year with good conditions. Probably more important to use the hard and semi hard wood for cuttings and that's mostly what is on the plants at the end of summer/ autumn.

The seeds were in sealed plastic bags when I got them so hopefully they’re relatively clean.

'relatively clean' is a relative term. Unless the seeds have been sanitised they will still have fungi and other microbes just waiting for the right conditions.
Hope the paper towel is giving the seeds enough moisture. Most methods mix the seed with damp sand, peat or some similar mix so they are in close contact with moisture.

Still hoping it is just a bit soon for germination and things are still on track. The seeds are able to sense temps , etc and will only germinate when they sense the correct combination of environmental influences.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

In regards to the beech, is it better to propegate from the tree or the hedge? I want to assume they’d be identical but I may be wrong. Air layering the hedge would probably be easier than tree? Cuttings would be the ‘quickest’ to take compared to the air layer, as thats much more involved but air layering the tree would give me a thicker trunk to work with (however you probably couldn’t wire the trunk at the size it’d likely be). See now I’m overthinking/getting ahead of myself again, haha.

I think I’m just worried I’d be diving in too deep too quickly into a hobby that may not stick? Growing the seeds was an easy toe dip, if anything grows, yay, if not thats ok. And if I do get seedlings, I’ve plenty of time to learn the basics before I need to start doing anything like wiring or working on nebari. A cutting would probably be the same, just a bit further along. An air layer, depending on where i take it from, could be quite large? Sure I’d be getting a mature plant established quite quickly, but how much can be done with an air layer? Mostly thinking about branches and things, how do you create those? I guess that’s more reading to do. I just get quite nervous about stuff going wrong, I’m not used to dealing with faliures so they can hit me quite hard. I suppose having seedlings, cuttings and an air layer give me three different starting points, will teach me three different horticultural techniques and possible plants at different life stages to work with.its just a daunting thought to suddenly have different stage plants to keep track of and have different care requirements. Part of me doesnt want to shy away from a challenge, another worries I’d be in way over my head.

As for the paper towel, its probably closer to wet that moist. I didn’t put the seeds in it folded up as I know roots like to go through paper towel and can be tricky to remove. Given there is condensation in the pot and the paper towel still feels wet (and if not it's easy to add a couple drops of water to wet it again) I’m hoping they’re ok.

Yes, the fridge seeds are just there for stratification/breaking winter doemancy, and hopefully when planted the increase of temp will be enough to encourage them to grow. Hoping the pine seeds also pop up soon, found a study done on the species that evaluated lab controlled environment vs more natural, spring temperature fluctuating environment (but didn’t see where the study was done) and germination rates were similar, and I know out of all the seeds the pines are the ones most of the reviews manage to grow so they should so the same for me, with time, maybe when its a touch warmer, we’ll see.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

The hedge turns out to be a mix of rhododendron and beech. So, in a very small area, I have beech, rowan, rhododendron and azalea.

Sounds like azaleas recommend mid to late summer for cuttings, same with rhododendron (makes sense). Found a website saying beech cuttings best from April-May, but that beech cuttings are difficult to root, but at least we’re in the right sort of season? Rowan seems to be June to August but also says young healthy trees only as old ones lose the ability to regenerate (so presumably the ability to take root as well?), no idea what counts as young and healthy, or how old the Rowan is, probably at least 20 years.

Is there a ‘best time’ for air layering? Not even sure if its a path I want to try, even the cuttings feel like I’d be getting ahead of myself. How big of a section do you air layer? What sort of thickness? I think I’d just a bit uncomfortable taking a chunk from someone else’s tree, even with permission. A cutting is a lot less invasive, air layer seems like I’d be taking a more noticeable amount (which is basically needed to get the intended result of a good size trunk from the get-go). Having said that I do keep forgetting we have the beech hedge not just my neighbour's tree, but not sure if it has anything decent enough to be worth propegating via air layer, may have to go have a look at it, it's bare at the moment, perhaps getting it air layered before the start of growth/new leaf season would be good? I suppose thats why nows the time for cuttings too.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

In regards to the beech, is it better to propegate from the tree or the hedge? I want to assume they’d be identical but I may be wrong. Air layering the hedge would probably be easier than tree? Cuttings would be the ‘quickest’ to take compared to the air layer, as thats much more involved but air layering the tree would give me a thicker trunk to work with (however you probably couldn’t wire the trunk at the size it’d likely be). See now I’m overthinking/getting ahead of myself again, haha.

I think I’m just worried I’d be diving in too deep too quickly into a hobby that may not stick? Growing the seeds was an easy toe dip, if anything grows, yay, if not thats ok. And if I do get seedlings, I’ve plenty of time to learn the basics before I need to start doing anything like wiring or working on nebari. A cutting would probably be the same, just a bit further along. An air layer, depending on where i take it from, could be quite large? Sure I’d be getting a mature plant established quite quickly, but how much can be done with an air layer? Mostly thinking about branches and things, how do you create those? I guess that’s more reading to do. I just get quite nervous about stuff going wrong, I’m not used to dealing with faliures so they can hit me quite hard. I suppose having seedlings, cuttings and an air layer give me three different starting points, will teach me three different horticultural techniques and possible plants at different life stages to work with.its just a daunting thought to suddenly have different stage plants to keep track of and have different care requirements. Part of me doesnt want to shy away from a challenge, another worries I’d be in way over my head.

As for the paper towel, its probably closer to wet that moist. I didn’t put the seeds in it folded up as I know roots like to go through paper towel and can be tricky to remove. Given there is condensation in the pot and the paper towel still feels wet (and if not it's easy to add a couple drops of water to wet it again) I’m hoping they’re ok.

Yes, the fridge seeds are just there for stratification/breaking winter doemancy, and hopefully when planted the increase of temp will be enough to encourage them to grow. Hoping the pine seeds also pop up soon, found a study done on the species that evaluated lab controlled environment vs more natural, spring temperature fluctuating environment (but didn’t see where the study was done) and germination rates were similar, and I know out of all the seeds the pines are the ones most of the reviews manage to grow so they should so the same for me, with time, maybe when its a touch warmer, we’ll see.

Practicing and exploring different bonsai techniques isn’t overthinking. Air layering can yield larger bonsai faster than seeds, and while it offers less shaping flexibility, it still allows for some manipulation and can produce amazing bonsai. That's why choosing what to air layer is just as important as the air layering method itself. Growing from seed offers the best shaping opportunities (and an intimate bond with your seed to tree couldn't be denied either).

Hobby depth is personal. IMO, I'd aim to gather diverse materials to get the most out of it. It’s fine to take a 'deep dive' as long as you’re responsible and ethical, avoiding neglect or harm to endangered species. Bonsai is a patient hobby that fits well with other activities as well, as it requires minimal daily care. I don't feel it's ever overwhelming in regard to 'taking too much of my time' sort of thing. And you hit the nail on the head -- embracing trees at various growth stages is beneficial and prevents over-attention to any single tree.

I think anyone would agree that knowledge is your best friend here. During your bonsai’s slow growth, you'll be afforded ample time for research and learning about care specifics, such as soil and substrate types, watering, feeding, pruning, wiring, and species differences.

I recommend “Modern Bonsai Practice: 501 Principles of Good Bonsai Horticulture” by Larry Morton, featuring Walter Pall. Basic guides are great and all, but you need something in-depth to get a better understanding. I'm not a fan of 'beginner literature' as it's grossly elementary and underwhelming, but it has its place. There are a lot more opinions than facts out there; it’s essential to find multiple sources to broaden your understanding, so don't hang your coat up on one book or resource.

I wish you luck on whatever you decide to do.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Had a quick nosy at the beech hedge, my dad said not to worry about taking a decent chunk out so that’s good. Will have a proper look later on, find a decent section to consider air layering, will have to start gathering supplies. Have to work out what sort of thickness to look for and how big a piece I want/need, most seem quite long and thin - which admittedly would be idea for letting me wiring trunk movement into come to think of it, but unsure how good it’d look, may be quite leggy and two dimensional? Any tips on what to look for, what features may make a good bonsai would be appreciated. Will have to do a lot of reading up on stuff, especially how new branches would work/form, wouldn’t want to just end up with a weedy little bare stick in a pot (because thats basically just a cutting )

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Had a closer look at the hedge, took some pictures and made a new thread here. (unsure how to link posts properly) I didn’t want to clutter up this thread with what felt like a divertion from the original post topic of my seeds and whatnot.

Still feel like I’m getting ahead of myself and trying to be way too ambitious right from the get go, I have no idea if bonsai will even be a thing my brain takes to and keeps up with. But will just have to see what happens.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

You seem to have the right idea,

Watch when those buds wake up into leaves, the leaves will appear 'soft' fresh new leaves look fragile, after a little while they will 'harden off' look a bit stronger and more like 'normal leaves' that's the time to air layer

Cut a nice wide 'girdle' (ring), no bridge! Make sure you scrape every last bit of green away from the girdle,

Your circle is one possibility,


Any of these red lines are other options you could try (but not all at once, layers need a direct path to foliage to power the layer)

I wouldn't really recommend you risk the trunk low down because you risk losing everything above it, but I would suggest doing practice branches you don't really care much about first to learn and understand the technique

You clearly enjoy reading and learning so keep up your research! I'm sure you'll do great!

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Wasn’t really looking at the tops, was trying to find bits that if removed wouldn’t leave too big a bald spot and that where also on our side of the hedge, but I’m probably overlooking a lot by doing that, could probably take off part of the upper section without causing too much of a mess. Thanks for the diagram of possible other options!

Sounds like I’ve a decent amount of time to gather supplies for air layering then if I’m best off waiting for the new growth to harden off, was thinking I’d have to/it’d be better doing it before so the burst of new growth would channel into the roots but after doing some reading it looks like its the leaves first and then they help channel root growth? Which makes sense as to why its best to wait till the leaves have mostly finished growing as the energy from them then gets diverted downwards/inwards I suppose.

I’ve always had a knack for researching and learning when I get into a new thing, its just finding the right information and/or good quality information. Sounds like you want to look for tapered branches to get the the correct effect/sense of proportion with bonsai, so will have to see if theres any nicely tapered parts (which may be more likely towards the top). Also been reading up a little on ramification, but that sounds a lot more complicated, and probably can wait till I have a successfully rooted air layer thats been settled in its own pot for a while.

 

[JeffS73]

Regarding pines, normal process is cold strat for 6 weeks in fridge, paper ok, sphagnum better, not very wet. Your no. 1 enemy for seeds is fungi in the form of damping off caused by stagnant damp environ. Seeds are easiest outside. Inside, once sown, you need light, warmth and air movement.
Lookup cmeg1 on this site, his indoor growing thread is epic. You can leave off a lot of the bells and whistles, but a lot is possible. Also lookup seedling cuttings by Jonas Dupuich on Bonsai Tonight. All possible in UK, done it myself.
Good luck!

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Regarding pines, normal process is cold strat for 6 weeks in fridge, paper ok, sphagnum better, not very wet. Your no. 1 enemy for seeds is fungi in the form of damping off caused by stagnant damp environ. Seeds are easiest outside. Inside, once sown, you need light, warmth and air movement.
Lookup cmeg1 on this site, his indoor growing thread is epic. You can leave off a lot of the bells and whistles, but a lot is possible. Also lookup seedling cuttings by Jonas Dupuich on Bonsai Tonight. All possible in UK, done it myself.
Good luck!

This is interesting, both the seed kit and sheffields say no stratification required (and the seed kit reviews, the only ones most people managed to grow were the pines) I wonder if pinus halipensis is different. This study here states startification actually inhibits germination (however they stored their seeds in the fridge so… who knows?). Also says ideal temp is 20C so my issue could just be the lower temp, or its too wet, or the seeds were bad, or they’re just taking their sweet time, etc. Will just wait and see.