Bonsai Takes Time!

[Andrew Robson]

I created this thread because I see so many people on this forum and in person who over work their trees. I then saw the video and wanted to share, because I believe its message holds true.

I went to a show a couple years ago and did a workshop with my dad on collected Engelmann Spruce. The show was in July I believe, and I knew that the tree was going to go back to St. Louis and still have a few months of heat to endure. Everyone in the workshop was wiring and pruning up their trees with the instructor, but my dad and I decided to wait. We know that spruce work should wait until fall, especially in St. Louis's climate. So instead of doing any work, when the instructor came around to us, we made and sketched a plan for design. We also had a good friend in the class who decided to wire and prune up his spruce. Both trees went back to St. Louis, and our friend's tree became extremely weak and almost died. Ours was given its initial style in October when Hagedorn was making his fall study group trip, and is as happy as can be. Our friend told me that he wished he didn't work the tree in the workshop.

 

[coh]

I believe what he meant is we don't have the training to do that type of work. Yes, we can learn a lot ourselves, but its nothing compared to studying with a master on a daily basis.

I had somehow missed that post by Mike. I too would like to try my hand at doing the initial styling on one of those trees. But I think it's a lot more difficult than it looks, and I highly doubt that what I would come up with would look nearly as impressive as someone who apprenticed in Japan, who lived and breathed high level bonsai every day for several years. If you carefully watch demos where this type of styling is done, there is a lot to it...from the overall conception to exactly where to put each branch to get the effect desired.

I don't think it's selling myself short to admit that I don't have the experience (yet, maybe never) to do a tree like that justice. Then again, I might do a better job than I think I would. But based on what I've been doing with my own trees, I kind of doubt it!

 

[augustine]

Wow, these big tree beasts out of the mountains are really eliciting strong feelings. Isn't that one of the things about art and why we enjoy viewing?

 

[sorce]

A master is good for the discipline.

If you can discipline yourself,
A master is not necessary.

Everything else can be learned elsewhere.

If someone has to tell you what a good tree should look like.......
You may as well let them style it!

Sorce

 

[Andrew Robson]

A master is good for the discipline.

If you can discipline yourself,
A master is not necessary.

Everything else can be learned elsewhere.

If someone has to tell you what a good tree should look like.......
You may as well let them style it!

Sorce

I strongly and respectfully disagree. If you want to learn how to have the best trees, go to the people with the best trees. Same with any other craft.

 

[Andrew Robson]

I strongly and respectfully disagree. If you want to learn how to have the best trees, go to the people with the best trees. Same with any other craft.

Further, you can't learn about the best trees by reading a book about them or looking at them online, you have to go and spend time with them and those who create them.

 

[jriddell88]

I strongly and respectfully disagree. If you want to learn how to have the best trees, go to the people with the best trees. Same with any other craft.

I strongly and respectfully disagree

 

[jriddell88]

A master is good for the discipline.

If you can discipline yourself,
A master is not necessary.

Everything else can be learned elsewhere.

If someone has to tell you what a good tree should look like.......
You may as well let them style it!

Sorce

Agreed

 

[Andrew Robson]

The most important part of a bonsai is the trunk. Having a good trunk is everything in bonsai, for example, that's why Boon's 30-point grading scale has 10 points for the trunk (5 for branching, 5 for nebari, 5 for pot choice, and 5 for overall aesthetic). You can have a tree with great branching, great nebari, and a great pot, but if it has a bad trunk, its ruins it all.

A few great trunks waiting to become awesome bonsai! http://crataegus.com/2015/12/10/new-projects-from-backcountry-bonsai/

 

[Andrew Robson]

I strongly and respectfully disagree

Why do you disagree?

 

[coh]

I can see this evolving (or devolving?) into one of those "classical bonsai" versus "naturalistic bonsai" debates.

 

[Dav4]

I strongly and respectfully disagree. If you want to learn how to have the best trees, go to the people with the best trees. Same with any other craft.

I strongly and respectfully disagree

I agree and disagree with both of you. You can learn a lot on your own and the internet IS a great source of info and inspiration...but to get to the promised land, seeing great trees up close and having someone whose been there a lot longer then you show you the ropes will get you there sooner...it's common sense really.

 

[sorce]

s. Same with any other craft.

I taught myself all my crafts.

If at first you don't succeed.....

I always succeed.

This, of course.....takes much longer....
That's why it is so intriguing.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Unless a master truly hears trees speak....

There is nothing necessary they MUST teach me.

Sorce

 

[jriddell88]

Horticulturally , if one can keep trees alive and understand how to allow them to thrive;air,light,soil ,roots,nutrients,etc.... then great trees will come with time. All of these things can be learned either online or by trial and error. Also if you think that you need to have the best trees then you need to go flip hamburgers , A- someone out there is not going to like your tree, B- someone else's tree is always better. Everyone needs to quit walking around with their chest puffed up and noses up. It is art. You don't need a master , you are the master. Yes maybe they can give you tips and improve your art form but it is not required. I have seen some amazing trees from some amazing people that juat love trees and have never been taught to do things one way or the other.

 

[jriddell88]

In the name of my father, my son, and the Holy japanese black pine...amen

 

[Adair M]

Horticulturally , if one can keep trees alive and understand how to allow them to thrive;air,light,soil ,roots,nutrients,etc.... then great trees will come with time. All of these things can be learned either online or by trial and error. Also if you think that you need to have the best trees then you need to go flip hamburgers , A- someone out there is not going to like your tree, B- someone else's tree is always better. Everyone needs to quit walking around with their chest puffed up and noses up. It is art. You don't need a master , you are the master. Yes maybe they can give you tips and improve your art form but it is not required. I have seen some amazing trees from some amazing people that juat love trees and have never been taught to do things one way or the other.

So, you must think that Ryan, and Bjorn, and Boon and Kathy Shaner and others wasted their time going to apprentice in Japan.

 

[Andrew Legg]

I think it takes a very special kind of person to create good bonsai with very little practical tuition. Sure, you'll get a few, but most of us just end up doing Naka figure 37 .......... Left right back, left right back all our lives if we are not challenged out of our comfort zone. Sure, good trees take time, but unless folks are willing to make personal progress, rubbish trees can take a lot of time too. I know two people who have done bonsai. One for 40 years, and one for 6 years. I learn more from the fella who's been doing it for 6. Why? Simple really. He's a shaker and mover, not a plodder. It's the same with trees. I've seen some old trees that are plodders. Other than age, not much going for them.

 

[jriddell88]

So, you must think that Ryan, and Bjorn, and Boon and Kathy Shaner and others wasted their time going to apprentice in Japan.

Of course not, I guess lucky them? They create some fantastic trees. Did I mention that somewhere....hmmm..no

 

[choppychoppy]

I taught myself all my crafts.

If at first you don't succeed.....

I always succeed.

This, of course.....takes much longer....
That's why it is so intriguing.

Sorce

How exactly have you succeeded at this craft? You have a handful of twigs on a windowsill in ridiculous hand made pots.