Bonsai is for Morons?

[Vance Wood]

I dont think he was wrong. From basic history we learned that even china and japan had a class system. People who had money could buy schooling as well as other nice things (We know that bonsai was a sign of wealth). However those nice things they owned (be it bonsai, horses, hunting dogs ect) where taken care of and trained by "peasants".

Not in all things. The Samurai class was expected to be proficient in the the things they practiced, not just able to obtain them. The Samurai class was expected to be skilled in Haiku, Calligraphy and the arts. I will accept that possibly the farmers tended to the bonsai but the artistry was the purview of the owner.

 

[Smoke]

Not in all things. The Samurai class was expected to be proficient in the the things they practiced, not just able to obtain them. The Samurai class was expected to be skilled in Haiku, Calligraphy and the arts. I will accept that possibly the farmers tended to the bonsai but the artistry was the purview of the owner.

Is this an opinion or a substansiated fact. I have never spoken to a Sumurai from 400 years ago to know for sure if any lower class citizens cared for trees. I do know that in speaking to many of the asian population in my home town that have been in bonsai for 50 plus years and their forefathers, that many of those that practised bonsai in Japan were of the working class and in many cases have been in the related landscape/gardening business.

My early comments in the previous thread that have been taken mostly out of context, at least in the way I meant them was in bonsai for the last hundred years. I have no idea about bonsai before that and frankly could care less. I have spoken my opinions based on a huge enterprise of bonsai in California based on the landscaping/gardening effect that was prevelent in the USA after the war and internment camps.

As far as the title, I never said bonsai was for moron's. I said the being educated did not necessarily mean that you would be an expert at bonsai design. An uneducated person has just a good a chance at making masterpiece bonsai as a person that is highly educated. A educated person may be able to better understand what he did and why, but it is not always the only way.

 

[Vance Wood]

Is this an opinion or a substansiated fact. I have never spoken to a Sumurai from 400 years ago to know for sure if any lower class citizens cared for trees. I do know that in speaking to many of the asian population in my home town that have been in bonsai for 50 plus years and their forefathers, that many of those that practised bonsai in Japan were of the working class and in many cases have been in the related landscape/gardening business.

My early comments in the previous thread that have been taken mostly out of context, at least in the way I meant them was in bonsai for the last hundred years. I have no idea about bonsai before that and frankly could care less. I have spoken my opinions based on a huge enterprise of bonsai in California based on the landscaping/gardening effect that was prevelent in the USA after the war and internment camps.

As far as the title, I never said bonsai was for moron's. I said the being educated did not necessarily mean that you would be an expert at bonsai design. An uneducated person has just a good a chance at making masterpiece bonsai as a person that is highly educated. A educated person may be able to better understand what he did and why, but it is not always the only way.

I didn't mean to poke a stick in your eye. However during my research for my book I explored a host of sources, not just those referring to bonsai, in trying to understand the historic and cultural aspects of the art, especially the early years. It is from the stand point of this research that I made my comment above; nothing more nothing less. As to the last hundred years I have to agree, bonsai had fallen from the hands of the ruling class but that is not to say that it was always this way. When the Samurai class was done away with many things in Japan changed except the importance of the military and the Emperor.

 

[bretts]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretts
I have given up on this thread at page 2. I think Chris is dead on the topic that Will dragged from another thread as he seems to think it will change something?. What is creepy is Will thinks we don't see his semantic tricks. The scariest moron is one that believes his own lies.

Oh and I have an average inteligence so I have a bet either way.

So you are saying I'll take a shot and then try to have it both ways; depending on who shoots back?

This is the problem with the Internet; It is easy to take pot shots, make accusations and so on without knowing the people you seem to have chosen to make enemies of. Is this really what you want?

If that is what being of average inteligence is then I guess I will live with a bet each way?

This is not a pot shot this is from reading Wills posts for years!

 

[Gardener]

I think what this person is trying to say (but said it poorly) was that Bonsai is art, therefore people who are creative and like to work with there hands are most often the people who practice this art. People need a creative perspective on things to really bring out the Bonsai "look" in a tree or shrub.
But since this is a "living art" there has to be some level of intelligence to be able to maintain the life of the plant. Like other people said in this thread, you have to know the species of tree to be able to maintain the life of it. This is where "intelligence" comes in. Also when I started collecting my bonsai trees a few years ago I did not know that the pot was more like a dish or that I had to wire my tree to form the shape, I did research of course and went to a Bonsai society meeting before I bought my first tree. I had to gain knowledge before I could get into my new hobby. Because I got so into Bonsai, I research this subject every time I have questions or ideas...because of this I now know alittle about Asian Style landscaping and the history of these things play a huge roll in the decisions I make with my plants, Example: I would not put a Japanese maple in a Chinese pot - I think that would show inexperience and somewhat disrespectfull to the art. So there is deffintly both intelligence and creativeness with bonsai.

For me, This is more than an art form, even though that's why I like it so much but it's also a scientific experience for me. I've always tried to find the logical explanation for things and think practicly about things. I come from a long line of farmers and gardeners and as a job I do gardening (not landscaping). I didn't graduate High School but I have enough "intelligence" to do my job well which touches on my hobby. Knowing about plants in general has really helped me.

I think this person wanted to say alot but either didn't know how or just lost the train of thought. I deffinetly think it's both intelligence and creativeness that makes a bonsai what it is. There are people out there (I've met) that know so much about they're trees in speciffic that they can tell you the nutrients that tree needs, why, and when.
If there wasn't a level of intelligence needed then how would you know when to fertlize or prune?
If there wasn't a level of creativeness needed then how would you know how to shape you'r tree and the pot that should be used?


Just something to think about

Thanks,
Gardener

 

[Boondock]

A book that radically influences my view on art is "The Unknown Craftsman--A Japanese Insight Into Beauty" by Soetsu Yanagi (1889-1961) This book challenged my very conventional idea of art and beauty. When applied to bonsai, intelligence is not only "not required ", it's "not applicable"

 

[Anonymous User]

Well that would explain at lot.

 

[Vance Wood]

A book that radically influences my view on art is "The Unknown Craftsman--A Japanese Insight Into Beauty" by Soetsu Yanagi (1889-1961) This book challenged my very conventional idea of art and beauty. When applied to bonsai, intelligence is not only "not required ", it's "not applicable"

Have you thought about that philosophy? Sometimes we buy into a way of thinking or looking at things authored by some glib individual that can put his thoughts on paper and we wind up buying what is said without question. The end result of letting someone else do your thinking for you, or discourage you from doing your own thinking is to stand in line at the Kool Aid stand. To say that intelligence is not applicable to bonsai is ludicrous. If it were not so, we would not be having these discussions, every dumb thing plopped in a pot would be wonderful; beyond critique. A critique takes intelligence, a guideline for that critique takes intelligence to apply, a rebuttal to that critique takes intelligence and ability; to get P.O.ed at someone who disagrees with you takes intelligence.

If it were me I would reject this axiom as being of questionable worth. The only people that want you to believe in having no intelligence are those who profit from making sure you stay that way.

 

[Rick Moquin]

ROTFL this is getting interesting

 

[Jeffro]

Im dumb. I am good at painting and sculpture. I have a head full of trivia and can answer most questions that people ask me. However, I am very green when it comes to bonsai. I do have the capacity to learn.

This is a debate to learn from.

 

[Smoke]

Have you thought about that philosophy? Sometimes we buy into a way of thinking or looking at things authored by some glib individual that can put his thoughts on paper and we wind up buying what is said without question. The end result of letting someone else do your thinking for you, or discourage you from doing your own thinking is to stand in line at the Kool Aid stand. To say that intelligence is not applicable to bonsai is ludicrous. If it were not so, we would not be having these discussions, every dumb thing plopped in a pot would be wonderful; beyond critique. A critique takes intelligence, a guideline for that critique takes intelligence to apply, a rebuttal to that critique takes intelligence and ability; to get P.O.ed at someone who disagrees with you takes intelligence.

If it were me I would reject this axiom as being of questionable worth. The only people that want you to believe in having no intelligence are those who profit from making sure you stay that way.

Reminds me of some other stupid stuff I read about cut paste and folier feeding. Your right Vance... you can't buy into every absurd thing you read!

Always happy to oblige, Al

 

[BONSAI GARAGE]

Bonsai is for Morons?
fixed/ This thread is for Morons!!!

I can't believe I read the whole thing.
Tanks for nuttin Danny!

 

[Anonymous User]

Reminds me of some other stupid stuff I read about cut paste and folier feeding. Your right Vance... you can't buy into every absurd thing you read!

At least give a link Al....

Debunking the Myths of Bonsai

The "stupid stuff" you refer to is backed with actual university studies as well as by the work of one of the greatest arborist of our time.....hardy absurd.

What is "stupid stuff" and "absurd" is hanging on to old wifes tales when every piece of evidence goes against it.

I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong, but it is going to take far more than juvenile name calling and insults, sorry Al.



As long as we are debunking myths, here are some others I have tackled...

The Myth of the Single Front

Babylon: The Origin of Bonsai?

The Secret to Soil Revealed!

Talent - The Holy Grail of Bonsai


Will

 

[Vance Wood]

At least give a link Al....

Debunking the Myths of Bonsai

The "stupid stuff" you refer to is backed with actual university studies as well as by the work of one of the greatest arborist of our time.....hardy absurd.

What is "stupid stuff" and "absurd" is hanging on to old wifes tales when every piece of evidence goes against it.

I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong, but it is going to take far more than juvenile name calling and insults, sorry Al.



As long as we are debunking myths, here are some others I have tackled...

The Myth of the Single Front

Babylon: The Origin of Bonsai?

The Secret to Soil Revealed!

Talent - The Holy Grail of Bonsai


Will

It takes intelligence to have a debate, it takes intelligence to defend or attack a position, it takes intelligence to discern the difference, and it takes intelligence to decide what to do if proved wrong.

Though it does, sadly, take intelligence to throw around accusations and noms-de-caca, it is a meaningless use of that ability.

 

[bretts]

it takes intelligence to decide what to do if proved wrong.

Maybe but that is a simple decision for most

 

[Vance Wood]

Maybe but that is a simple decision for most

No it's not. I have known people that winning an argument was more important than whether they were right or wrong. I was having a discussion about a point in scripture with a pastor of a church I once belonged to. He absolutely refused to see my point. Funny thing; about one month latter he preached a sermon from the pulpit voicing the same point I had proposed to him in our earlier discussion.

I used to work with another individual who was actually pretty intelligent but intellectually lazy. He was smart enough he could BS his way through almost any subject. When flaws in his facts were pointed out and he could not BS his way around the truth, he wanted to take you out into the parking lot and kick the snot out of you.

So what does this have to do with anything? Realizing that you (generically speaking) are wrong is not so easy a thing for a large number of people. In the realm of bonsai I think often it is the importance of the argument/discussion that has priority over content and truth. Some people will argue a point to death even if they really don't know why point A is not really point B, when someone has argued with an abundance of sources that in fact point B is worth considering. In many cases we are arguing epistemology; how do we know what we know? In bonsai there are really only three ways to know anything: We read it in a book or on the Internet, we are taught it by a teacher, or we discover it through our own experimentation. If you cannot reveal how you know something then your epistemology is flawed.

 

[bretts]

I was sure there was at least one person that you knew that could not admit they were wrong.
I like to be right offcourse, we all do. So if I am proven wrong the sooner I admit I am wrong, and accept the truth, the sooner I am right again.
Some people are too often caught up in a power struggle to correct themselves. This is not a measure of inteligence but of ignorance.

 

[Vance Wood]

I was sure there was at least one person that you knew that could not admit they were wrong.
I like to be right offcourse, we all do. So if I am proven wrong the sooner I admit I am wrong, and accept the truth, the sooner I am right again.
Some people are too often caught up in a power struggle to correct themselves. This is not a measure of inteligence but of ignorance.

I'm not sure its ignorance either Brett, I think it is more pride. Ignorance can damage a lot of things but pride makes criminal the kind of things where ignorance can be forgiven.

 

[Smoke]

Some people will argue a point to death even if they really don't know why point A is not really point B, when someone has argued with an abundance of sources that in fact point B is worth considering. In many cases we are arguing epistemology; how do we know what we know? In bonsai there are really only three ways to know anything: We read it in a book or on the Internet, we are taught it by a teacher, or we discover it through our own experimentation. If you cannot reveal how you know something then your epistemology is flawed.

I know it because I have done it. I usually back that up with pictures of what I have done as well as achieved. That is not always the case here and elsewhere. Agueing others peoples work is asinine. Posting trees of other peoples work to support your own rhetoric is also wrong.

What is right is to show you actually know what you are preaching by showing a body of work that supports your claims. If someone is going to debunk anything I would think they would go the extra mile and prove it doesn't work on bonsai, rather than just regurgitate the outdated text of a tree arborist which has nothing to do with potted plant culture for asthetics. Just my opinion.

If someone is going to write a piece on slanting bonsai and how they should be done or executued I would surly hope that the author is going to show his or her own work and not the masterpieces of someone else. I am reminded of a great Rock Hudson movie; 'Man's Favorite Sport", one in my top ten list.

Al

 

[Vance Wood]

I know it because I have done it. I usually back that up with pictures of what I have done as well as achieved. That is not always the case here and elsewhere. Agueing others peoples work is asinine. Posting trees of other peoples work to support your own rhetoric is also wrong.

What is right is to show you actually know what you are preaching by showing a body of work that supports your claims. If someone is going to debunk anything I would think they would go the extra mile and prove it doesn't work on bonsai, rather than just regurgitate the outdated text of a tree arborist which has nothing to do with potted plant culture for asthetics. Just my opinion.

If someone is going to write a piece on slanting bonsai and how they should be done or executued I would surly hope that the author is going to show his or her own work and not the masterpieces of someone else. I am reminded of a great Rock Hudson movie; 'Man's Favorite Sport", one in my top ten list.

Al

You are right to a point but your reasoning is a bit flawed. It can be pointed out what things look like from the moon, volumes have been written about that subject, but according to your reasoning only those who have been there are qualified to say anything about it. The same can be said about any number of things concerning history, science, medicine and art. I would like to remind you of how many times certain individuals got "Bent out of shape" when I suggested that they post pictures of their own work to back up the high flying condescension of their words.