Bjorn Bjorholm Speaks Out On Hedge Pruning

[choppychoppy]

I think the evidence is pretty clear. I mean how would anyone think that these two 'result' are even close to equal. The correct 'Japanese' technique seems to be so clearly superior. I am very surprised that Walter Pall would think he's 'doing it better'. It's definitely an easier and faster approach but the end results speak volumes. I've seen pretty much every tree posted on WPs insta and FB and I personally have never seen anything at this level of detail. This is just my view. When he said whoever has the better trees would prove out the better technique - seems kinda clear, no?

 

[sorce]

Respectfully,

It might depend on where you're from.

I prefer the one on the left, because that's how our old trees look here. You just don't have the growth patterns of perfection on the trees here.

I don't think this is a good comparison, as these trees both lean a bit further into their "form". One a bit too, unstylized, one a bit too overdone.

Sorce

 

[Ruben Bouwmeester]

@Adair M, that tree from Mario Komsta. Have you seen it?

 

[bonsaichile]

Respectfully,

It might depend on where you're from.

I prefer the one on the left, because that's how our old trees look here. You just don't have the growth patterns of perfection on the trees here.

I don't think this is a good comparison, as these trees both lean a bit further into their "form". One a bit too, unstylized, one a bit too overdone.

Sorce

Respectfully too, @sorce, what does the way trees grow in your neighborhood have to do with bonsai? I keep hearing people say that, and quite frankly, I dont understand it.

 

[Ruben Bouwmeester]

Respectfully,
Is that so?

It might depend on where you're from.
Where are you from, marssss?

I prefer the one on the left, because that's how our old trees look here. You just don't have the growth patterns of perfection on the trees here.
Oke, petterns in tree's where is your perfection!?

Just don't speak about perfection when you haven't perfected a tree!

Sorce

 

[wireme]

I think the evidence is pretty clear. I mean how would anyone think that these two 'result' are even close to equal. The correct 'Japanese' technique seems to be so clearly superior. I am very surprised that Walter Pall would think he's 'doing it better'. It's definitely an easier and faster approach but the end results speak volumes. I've seen pretty much every tree posted on WPs insta and FB and I personally have never seen anything at this level of detail. This is just my view. When he said whoever has the better trees would prove out the better technique - seems kinda clear, no?

View attachment 272758View attachment 272759

Walter said something more like the best results over a long time proves the best technique. Not sure the wording exactly but time under training is something to consider when comparing results for sure. I have no idea how comparable those two examples would be time wise. Some of the things you can see zooming into hedged trees seem to slowly iron out over time if you compare progression shots. But, I dunno, I’m not arguing for one or another just saying don’t forget to account for time.

 

[Djtommy]

I think the evidence is pretty clear. I mean how would anyone think that these two 'result' are even close to equal. The correct 'Japanese' technique seems to be so clearly superior. I am very surprised that Walter Pall would think he's 'doing it better'. It's definitely an easier and faster approach but the end results speak volumes. I've seen pretty much every tree posted on WPs insta and FB and I personally have never seen anything at this level of detail. This is just my view. When he said whoever has the better trees would prove out the better technique - seems kinda clear, no?

View attachment 272758View attachment 272759

with all due respect, both of these pictures are so blurry, there is no way of discussing the benefits, downside of each technique. you can not see the details needed to compare. Much better up close photos are needed for that.
And @sorce wether one prefers one styling of a tree over an other is beyond the discussion of benefits, disadvantages
here are some Japanese trees with more detail, if anything though it made me aware I should take sharper pictures as most of my photos seem to get blurry upon zoomin .
the bottom one is from a zelkova, zelko Is a species I have my strong doubts if hedging would be an ok method because they tend to callus and bulge rather easily, even on this tree you can see some of that.

 

[sorce]

Respectfully too, @sorce, what does the way trees grow in your neighborhood have to do with bonsai? I keep hearing people say that, and quite frankly, I dont understand it.

It's what we are comfortable with in miniature.
The familiar things that touch us.

@BobbyLane is our best representative of this, as he has a picture of the full size model for near every tree he has.

Sure, the internet allows is access to pictures from far away places, but nothing is as comforting in either form, large or small, as the trees we touch daily.

It is the human connection to life giving green.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

You misread what I wrote.

Severely.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

And @sorce wether one prefers one styling of a tree over an other is beyond the discussion of benefits, disadvantages

Well the look is the result of the method.

If I prefer the look of one, clearly the method is beneficial.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

I beg to differ! Picasso Rocks!! Vincent had mother issues!!
Sorry. Been drinking!! ( Still think it's funny!! I crack myself sometimes!!)

That's why you shouldn't drink and drive.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

'I need to read this thread with a bucket o' popcorn

 

[bonsaichile]

It's what we are comfortable with in miniature.
The familiar things that touch us.

@BobbyLane is our best representative of this, as he has a picture of the full size model for near every tree he has.

Sure, the internet allows is access to pictures from far away places, but nothing is as comforting in either form, large or small, as the trees we touch daily.

It is the human connection to life giving green.

Sorce

I think I understand what you are saying, yet I am unabashedly globalist . It might be because I am an immigrant and I like to travel, but I dont find more comfort or inspirstion in the "local" than I do in the "foreign."

In any case, my beef is not with you. But too many people here seem to equate bonsai with just reproducing nature at a smaller scale. And when I see trees in nature, I see (mostly) taperless trunks, cris-crossing branches, straight sections in branches and trunk, branches out of proportion... you get the gist.

Walter Pall trees are amazing, no doubt. But I have never had the opportunity to see one up close. And Bjorn really gives a reasoned horticultural explanation (not aesthetic) of why this technique produces poor results. All of that, of course, grounded on the (aesthetic) notion that we are not simply mimicking nature (that woulf be impossible) but rather trying to convey feelings (aesthetic or otherwise) through an idealized version of nature. And that is also what I see when I see Walter Pall's trees: not a "natural" style, but a culturally-especific idealization of full grown trees.

 

[sorce]

But too many people here seem to equate bonsai with just reproducing nature at a smaller scale. And when I see trees in nature, I see (mostly) taperless trunks, cris-crossing branches, straight sections in branches and trunk, branches out of proportion... you get the gist.

There is a Large Large range covered between just small nature and Japanese Bonsai.

I don't think anyone understands how many increments of the definitions there are.

What we are left with is 100 people arguing about their own increment. When it's actually all the same shit!

Sorce

 

[BunjaeKorea]

I think I understand what you are saying, yet I am unabashedly globalist . It might be because I am an immigrant and I like to travel, but I dont find more comfort or inspirstion in the "local" than I do in the "foreign."

In any case, my beef is not with you. But too many people here seem to equate bonsai with just reproducing nature at a smaller scale. And when I see trees in nature, I see (mostly) taperless trunks, cris-crossing branches, straight sections in branches and trunk, branches out of proportion... you get the gist.

Walter Pall trees are amazing, no doubt. But I have never had the opportunity to see one up close. And Bjorn really gives a reasoned horticultural explanation (not aesthetic) of why this technique produces poor results. All of that, of course, grounded on the (aesthetic) notion that we are not simply mimicking nature (that woulf be impossible) but rather trying to convey feelings (aesthetic or otherwise) through an idealized version of nature. And that is also what I see when I see Walter Pall's trees: not a "natural" style, but a culturally-especific idealization of full grown trees.

The Asian techniques do two important things. They increase airflow and hence help reduce diseases. They also allow light to penetrate and for the tree to take more advantage of the surface to light ratio.
Like previously stated 2000 years is a long time to study a subject. Things are done for a reason, know the reason is what defines novice from master.....

 

[TN_Jim]

I think I understand what you are saying, yet I am unabashedly globalist . It might be because I am an immigrant and I like to travel, but I dont find more comfort or inspirstion in the "local" than I do in the "foreign."

In any case, my beef is not with you. But too many people here seem to equate bonsai with just reproducing nature at a smaller scale. And when I see trees in nature, I see (mostly) taperless trunks, cris-crossing branches, straight sections in branches and trunk, branches out of proportion... you get the gist.

Walter Pall trees are amazing, no doubt. But I have never had the opportunity to see one up close. And Bjorn really gives a reasoned horticultural explanation (not aesthetic) of why this technique produces poor results. All of that, of course, grounded on the (aesthetic) notion that we are not simply mimicking nature (that woulf be impossible) but rather trying to convey feelings (aesthetic or otherwise) through an idealized version of nature. And that is also what I see when I see Walter Pall's trees: not a "natural" style, but a culturally-especific idealization of full grown trees.

Isn’t it more than impossible? Knobs or no knobs. It’s hedge pruning, seems pretty self explanatory vs. individual branch cuts. Which is more refined or closer to a tree in reality? Sure you can get the job done, but to question the results of seems absurd.

I thought it striking when Bjorn said this and appreciated that he backed it up with the simple biology of how trees grow.

Try an apple, they’re knobs

 

[TN_Jim]

Isn’t it more than impossible? Knobs or no knobs. It’s hedge pruning, seems pretty self explanatory vs. individual branch cuts. Which is more refined or closer to a tree in reality? Sure you can get the job done, but to question the results of seems absurd.

I thought it striking when Bjorn said this and appreciated that he backed it up with the simple biology of how trees grow.

Try an apple, they’re knobs

I didn’t mean you try apples, @bonsaichili. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[bonsaichile]

I didn’t mean you try apples, @bonsaichili. Thanks for your thoughts.

That's ok, I love apples anyways

 

[Djtommy]

Well the look is the result of the method.

If I prefer the look of one, clearly the method is beneficial.

Sorce

so you think if you start hedging your trees they will end up looking like Walter’s trees?
i think there is a little bit more behind it

 

[BobbyLane]

It's what we are comfortable with in miniature.
The familiar things that touch us.

@BobbyLane is our best representative of this, as he has a picture of the full size model for near every tree he has.

Sure, the internet allows is access to pictures from far away places, but nothing is as comforting in either form, large or small, as the trees we touch daily.

It is the human connection to life giving green.

Sorce

Ah here ya go then