From https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/berras-satsuki-nyohozan.44178/post-981364
Sorry, it was 'layout wiring' you wrote, not structural wiring.
Berra's Satsuki Nyohozan
- Thread starter Berra
- Start date
Sorry, it was 'layout wiring' you wrote, not structural wiring.
@Deep Sea Diver you wrote that the moss layer on top should be "btw lay it on thick so the final after pat down is 1/8” ". I miscalculated and it is more like an inch thick now. 1/8 would dry out fairly quickly even if misted often?
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Great question. Actually after the moss grows on my trees, it can be up to 1” thick!
I” thick to start might be a lot, but good porosity is the key.
Actually I use many other shallow rooted plants to good effect. All the plants we have plants on the top of the media seem to love them and grow extremely well.
Now if you want to show a tree, things are very different and the judges often frown on burgeoning layers of plant life in a pot. They aren’t ecologists though.
cheers
DSD sends
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
It helps to mist to establish the moss
We use this hose and sprayer in the mornings and as needed. It helps the moss hold up until the weather breaks
Dramm 60-12344 12344 1 GPM Fog-It Nozzle Fine Heavy Duty Brass https://a.co/d/hrq5zAs
DSD sends
Thinned the stongest branches out a little bit earlier this summer. Did some structural wiring two times to prepare for next year's (planned) more hard prune.
Going to follow this rolling 3 year plan suggested earlier (Jul 30 2022 by DSD):
Year 1, 2023) repot
Year 2) hard cut back + full wiring
Year 3) let it flower
This year it seems to back bud and grow stronger than it has before... Even though it was reported in spring. Maybe because of deeper pot?
Going to follow this rolling 3 year plan suggested earlier (Jul 30 2022 by DSD):
Year 1, 2023) repot
Year 2) hard cut back + full wiring
Year 3) let it flower
This year it seems to back bud and grow stronger than it has before... Even though it was reported in spring. Maybe because of deeper pot?
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Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Well done!
This azalea looks much happier now! Likely a lot of things done helped the tree flourish… aerating root ball, remove old roots, new media, deeper pot etc.
It’s plain to see how the tree has gotten much healthier, the foliage has thickened and greened up under your care this year!
jfyi: This year we explored using thicker layers of moss (up to 1/4” + once established) and other vegetation due to the heat spells we’ve experienced out here. These thicker layers seem to have done a really good job of protecting the roots and have resulted in very resilient growth. These thicker layers also have the advantage of being able to be scraped off and reused. Early fall is a good time to get moss etc started out here.
Cheers
DSD sends
This azalea looks much happier now! Likely a lot of things done helped the tree flourish… aerating root ball, remove old roots, new media, deeper pot etc.
It’s plain to see how the tree has gotten much healthier, the foliage has thickened and greened up under your care this year!
jfyi: This year we explored using thicker layers of moss (up to 1/4” + once established) and other vegetation due to the heat spells we’ve experienced out here. These thicker layers seem to have done a really good job of protecting the roots and have resulted in very resilient growth. These thicker layers also have the advantage of being able to be scraped off and reused. Early fall is a good time to get moss etc started out here.
Cheers
DSD sends
Thanks! As posted earlier, I first tried 1'' then got spooked and reverted to 1/8''. Maybe I will adjust further...
Do you use dried Sphagnum? Thats what I use anyway, normally used for frogs here.
Dries up very fast however in sun and I havent been able to grow live moss on it yet this year. Hoping to do so this fall.
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Hmm…. Maybe the tree needs a bit more shade to get it started. Anyways, here’s the procedure I use (credit Rick Garcia). This should yield really good coverage.
Just a hint on how to get successful moss coverage for bonsai. Works really well for us.
Cheers
DSD sends
Just a hint on how to get successful moss coverage for bonsai. Works really well for us.
- Before mossing take the dry moss and soak it thoroughly for about an hour or two or overnight if needed.
- Clear all bark, weeds debris off the media, unless it’s part of the media
- Next, take tweezers (bent nose work best for this) and ‘tuck’ good sized wads of moss all down into the media around the edge of the pot and also all around the roots firmly into the media.
- Finally take more wads of moss and work inward from the edge of the pot moss and outward from the nebari tucking the moss into the media until there is 100% coverage over the the top of the pot.
- Place tree in afternoon shade for 1-2 weeks.
Cheers
DSD sends
Glaucus
Chumono
For azalea seedlings in peat 2:1 perlite, whatever loose soil you pack on top of the current rootball, that area will eventually all be filled with moss roots and moss. I usually leave 2cm of extra top soil. So every seedling I repotted, after being in there for a year, there was a very clear transition between moss roots and azalea roots. I can pull off the moss part intact and separate it from the azalea.
I do see seeing a slight relationship now between chlorotic cuttings in pots filled with liverworts vs no health issues for actual moss. But for cuttings only, so far. I'd say moss is good to neutral, liverwort is probably bad.
What about growing your actual local moss in a plate of kanuma soil? And then seeding your top layer of kanuma just above the roots of the satsuki with that actual moss? Avoids the whole dried sphagnum need.
If you keep the kanuma in a shaded area and keep it wet, stuff like moss will start to grow there eventually. But you could even find your local favourite moss and grow it deliberately.
If you have nebari like that, having moss grow in between seems like a good idea. Rather than covering it all up with additional kanuma or dried sphaghum.
I got some satsuki that had sphagnum top dressing. But eventually I just pull it out anyway. Keeping it there to keep roots moist and cool 1 to 2 months after a big repot could be nice. But it is not needed I feel in the Swedish climate.
If you get a true heat wave, you could apply and remove it for just those few days, if there is no actual live moss there yet.
I still wonder about the actual full effect of moss, especially in the cloudy wet parts of the year. Surely, it helps the top roots stay moist and cool during hot dry weather, which is very good. But does it keep things too wet in during the colder rainy parts of the year? Does it reduce aeration? Does it improve the overall microbiome quality? Does it help the azalea roots?
Could you put an azalea bonsai in harder substrate and never repot it and keep the moss untoched on top for 10+ years? Robinson style?
I like to pull out moss when I see too much. Often, I'd pull it out and put it back upside down. But I have no idea if my urge to do so is actually bad. But moss always grows there anyway, so no reason to start a big fight with it. Plus it looks good. Just wondering if slowing or replacing the moss every once in a while is good. Like remove most of the moss at the end of the growing season and put in some new fresh kanuma.
I need to dig into the Japanese magazines and find and translate what they say about moss and bonsai health.
From seedling trays covered with sphagum, those rarely seem to fill out with actual live sphagnum.
While the picture of your Nyohozan looks quite dark, it seems very healthy now. Huge improvement considering the burned leaves when you started this thread.
A repot can often act reinvigorating to azalea, and help them grow new roots and new shoots. They like fresh airy soil over compacted decomposed muck.
I'd say, keep doing what you are doing.
I do see seeing a slight relationship now between chlorotic cuttings in pots filled with liverworts vs no health issues for actual moss. But for cuttings only, so far. I'd say moss is good to neutral, liverwort is probably bad.
What about growing your actual local moss in a plate of kanuma soil? And then seeding your top layer of kanuma just above the roots of the satsuki with that actual moss? Avoids the whole dried sphagnum need.
If you keep the kanuma in a shaded area and keep it wet, stuff like moss will start to grow there eventually. But you could even find your local favourite moss and grow it deliberately.
If you have nebari like that, having moss grow in between seems like a good idea. Rather than covering it all up with additional kanuma or dried sphaghum.
I got some satsuki that had sphagnum top dressing. But eventually I just pull it out anyway. Keeping it there to keep roots moist and cool 1 to 2 months after a big repot could be nice. But it is not needed I feel in the Swedish climate.
If you get a true heat wave, you could apply and remove it for just those few days, if there is no actual live moss there yet.
I still wonder about the actual full effect of moss, especially in the cloudy wet parts of the year. Surely, it helps the top roots stay moist and cool during hot dry weather, which is very good. But does it keep things too wet in during the colder rainy parts of the year? Does it reduce aeration? Does it improve the overall microbiome quality? Does it help the azalea roots?
Could you put an azalea bonsai in harder substrate and never repot it and keep the moss untoched on top for 10+ years? Robinson style?
I like to pull out moss when I see too much. Often, I'd pull it out and put it back upside down. But I have no idea if my urge to do so is actually bad. But moss always grows there anyway, so no reason to start a big fight with it. Plus it looks good. Just wondering if slowing or replacing the moss every once in a while is good. Like remove most of the moss at the end of the growing season and put in some new fresh kanuma.
I need to dig into the Japanese magazines and find and translate what they say about moss and bonsai health.
From seedling trays covered with sphagum, those rarely seem to fill out with actual live sphagnum.
While the picture of your Nyohozan looks quite dark, it seems very healthy now. Huge improvement considering the burned leaves when you started this thread.
A repot can often act reinvigorating to azalea, and help them grow new roots and new shoots. They like fresh airy soil over compacted decomposed muck.
I'd say, keep doing what you are doing.
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Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
It does look like new tissue.
Was this are area broken/exposed before? This time of the year the azalea starts storing sugars and starches in its vascular system, so this could be just laying on more wood in the area.
If the area is mushy or punky, that’s a different story.
cheers
DSD sends
Was this are area broken/exposed before? This time of the year the azalea starts storing sugars and starches in its vascular system, so this could be just laying on more wood in the area.
If the area is mushy or punky, that’s a different story.
cheers
DSD sends
Yeah I suspect a large sacrifice branch was there before, thats good news then, Thanks!
2023 Repot + Structural wiring
2024 Cutback + Full wiring
2025 Flowering
@Deep Sea Diver So this is the schedule you suggested a year or two back that I am following. What time of the season would you cut back and wire? Post first flush of growth, or later, or earlier? Thanks teacher
2024 Cutback + Full wiring
2025 Flowering
@Deep Sea Diver So this is the schedule you suggested a year or two back that I am following. What time of the season would you cut back and wire? Post first flush of growth, or later, or earlier? Thanks teacher
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Greetings!
The goal this year will be to choose branches ( some may be older, some may be newer and will need to grow out to fill in areas where the design calls for new branching. This part can be done now given the tree is still kept in a frost free area.
This is the initial styling year, so it will not be perfect. Think future and keep branches that could be used with trimming or more growth down the line. Shaping not refining.
That’s a lot for now.
Cheers
DSD sends
The goal this year will be to choose branches ( some may be older, some may be newer and will need to grow out to fill in areas where the design calls for new branching. This part can be done now given the tree is still kept in a frost free area.
This is the initial styling year, so it will not be perfect. Think future and keep branches that could be used with trimming or more growth down the line. Shaping not refining.
Start by removing all little shoots coming off the trunk in areas where branches will not be needed. Also those branches coming directly off the bottom of prospective branches. Also some going straight up in obvious cases not in design. Seal all areas.
Top Jin is what many use for small/large cuts. (Amazon Japanese Top Jin M Paste for Bonsai Tree Cut, Wound & Grafting Sealant - 200 g)
Sealing putty (green top) is used to seal larger cuts once the Top Jin dries completely 1-3 days (Amazon - Bonsai Cut Paste Conifers - 160 Grams + Made in Japan, Pruning Sealer for an Injury to The Bark, Putty Based - This is also for azaleas don’t let the label mislead)
Please to post 4 images around the tree at this point? Then we can chat more.
Next step structural wiring. Goal. develop distinct pads and some sense of harmony throughout the tree. First round up a full suite of aluminum wire on hand. Just a guess would say all sizes 4.5mm down to 1.0mm. Can’t tell you quantity without the tree on hand (we use 1 kg rolls, but if this is still your only azalea, might only need 500g, Eventually one uses much more for smaller sizes.
Just for drill will PM a wiring HO we just developed. Later refer specifically to this if there are any questions
Begin with structural wire - wire primaries and secondaries.
Cutbacks - initial wiring will reveal these areas. Not sure how many big cut backs would be needed considering the shape the tree was in. That’s a lot for now.
Cheers
DSD sends
Thanks @Deep Sea Diver for the hand out and instructions , I have ordered Top Jin and the Green lid putty, I have been using the white lid putty from the same manufacturer on this tree so far.
(Edit: thought I recorded without sound, maybe just turn it off, as you can hear we have thaw now) I keep all deciduous and azaleas in a heated greenhouse I built last year.
As you can see the tree is still very sparse in the top. I aim to use existing larger branches and not take those away. But it would be nice to chase down the very leggy branches as much as possible.
(Edit: thought I recorded without sound, maybe just turn it off, as you can hear we have thaw now) I keep all deciduous and azaleas in a heated greenhouse I built last year.
As you can see the tree is still very sparse in the top. I aim to use existing larger branches and not take those away. But it would be nice to chase down the very leggy branches as much as possible.
Attachments
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Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Thank you for the images. Overall looks good in winter foliage. The areas with higher concentration of growth clustered together will need some reduction. The Apex will not.
Yes the foliage is far out. Wiring and layout so light can get into each space will help.
Off to a meeting, but before heading out one question. Does the tree get light in winter storage? If so, please be sure different sides of the tree are rotated towards the light about every 2-3 weeks if possible.
Cheers
DSD sends
Yes the foliage is far out. Wiring and layout so light can get into each space will help.
Off to a meeting, but before heading out one question. Does the tree get light in winter storage? If so, please be sure different sides of the tree are rotated towards the light about every 2-3 weeks if possible.
Cheers
DSD sends
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
The video you posted below is about work that was done on a tree that had been planted in the ground. Ground grown trees are much more robust and are pruned differently.
The video below is how a tree is pruned that was planted in a box. The pruning for the tree you have that in a pot is much closer to what will need to happen to the Nyohosen. The first 10 minutes are applicable… the rest are good background, especially the last 8 minutes about build ups.
Please do the first branch removal as mentioned earlier.
Pruning Timing. It’s a bit early to do anything but wire and prune lightly. The goal when wiring a tree initially is to lay out the branches With sub branches oriented outwards from the branch at about a 30-40 degree angle. Each tip should be tilted upward to get max sun/auxin.
The next step is going through the tree and thinning branches off, with an eye towards keeping bifurcations. Push branches back to healthy inner growth if possible. As a goal be more aggressive on the bottom and sides. Favor shorter growth on the basal areas and sides. Leave more growth and longer growth on top
Nyohosen is a sport of Kozan which is strong but somewhat of a slower grower. It tends to grow sideways, so Nyohosen will be the same.
cheers
DSD sends
The video below is how a tree is pruned that was planted in a box. The pruning for the tree you have that in a pot is much closer to what will need to happen to the Nyohosen. The first 10 minutes are applicable… the rest are good background, especially the last 8 minutes about build ups.
Please do the first branch removal as mentioned earlier.
Pruning Timing. It’s a bit early to do anything but wire and prune lightly. The goal when wiring a tree initially is to lay out the branches With sub branches oriented outwards from the branch at about a 30-40 degree angle. Each tip should be tilted upward to get max sun/auxin.
The next step is going through the tree and thinning branches off, with an eye towards keeping bifurcations. Push branches back to healthy inner growth if possible. As a goal be more aggressive on the bottom and sides. Favor shorter growth on the basal areas and sides. Leave more growth and longer growth on top
Nyohosen is a sport of Kozan which is strong but somewhat of a slower grower. It tends to grow sideways, so Nyohosen will be the same.
cheers
DSD sends
Thanks a lot @Deep Sea Diver.
I did wire best I could and cut back as much as I dared, a couple of weeks ago.
It seems to be back budding a bit so far, waiting for warmer weather, all trees sit in a heated green house. Still have freezing nights here.
I will have very limited time for bonsai the coming months.
I did wire best I could and cut back as much as I dared, a couple of weeks ago.
It seems to be back budding a bit so far, waiting for warmer weather, all trees sit in a heated green house. Still have freezing nights here.
I will have very limited time for bonsai the coming months.
Attachments
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Great!
Here’s my thoughts.
As long as the cuts were made to healthy green all should be well. Please ensure all cuts are sealed, nomatter the size. Top Jin is best due to the anti fungal within.. Treat it as best as possible with the time available.
The wiring is very good, with one innovative branch to branch jump.
Keep tree in 3/4 sun if possible for a month or so unless the temperatures are forecast to be in the 30C if this occurs partial shade until the heat wave passes. In summer … morning sun, afternoon bright shade or dabbled shade. In fall can move to 3/4 sun.
The media may need surface treatment (soji) faster with the use of biogold like fertilizers. Monitor water absorption times.
Good luck! Really like to see your posts.
cheers
DSD sends
Here’s my thoughts.
As long as the cuts were made to healthy green all should be well. Please ensure all cuts are sealed, nomatter the size. Top Jin is best due to the anti fungal within.. Treat it as best as possible with the time available.
The wiring is very good, with one innovative branch to branch jump.
Keep tree in 3/4 sun if possible for a month or so unless the temperatures are forecast to be in the 30C if this occurs partial shade until the heat wave passes. In summer … morning sun, afternoon bright shade or dabbled shade. In fall can move to 3/4 sun.
The media may need surface treatment (soji) faster with the use of biogold like fertilizers. Monitor water absorption times.
Good luck! Really like to see your posts.
cheers
DSD sends
