Bad Material + Bonsai Master = Bad Material

[Smoke]

Man I been readin a lot of crazy text here lately. Old school, new school, America doesn't have a tradition yet, etc., etc.

Lots of put up or shut ups, challenges, your mother wears army boots and I have yet to see a decent bonsai tree by any of you blabber mouths yet..

what gives....

 

[YukiShiro]

I think a question to be asked is:

As most of us practice bonsai as a hobby, we have to establish what bonsai means to us...is bonsai about having world class kokufo ten trees, or is it about the journey to creating such a tree ?

That being asked, I think its al relative to personal perspective...hobbyists generaly practice their hobby because they like doing it, aka the journey... I like working on my trees as much as I like viewing my best trees, even if the material is bad,mediocre or awesome...

Masters will not bother with bad material because, bonsai is their livelyhood, their bread and butter. Its just not worth spending the extra time on bad material so they could create something good out of it, they will lose a lot of money...that time could be better spent on two or three trees of good to exceptional quality.

Lastly, coming back to the journey...I know the topic is if a master could create good bonsai from bad material or not...but jeez guys, why should all of our trees be world class...why not just love to work on our trees instead of rushing to be competitive with japan or europe

Anyhow...just the ravings of a South African

 

[Vance Wood]

Alright Poink88, now that I have a little free time I've reconsidered your challenge. Here is my seed (no leaves yet). Let's see your bad matrerial, i.e. the no taper, scarred up, corse foliage trident maple. I mentioned, in my example, a six inch trunk but if you can only find one a little smaller that would likely be acceptable. Since I am starting from seed, I need at least five years to get something decent going, and it would more realistically take ten years for it to be well on it's way to finalizing basic structure for ramification phase. But at ten years, a tree, grown for bonsai from seed will have more obvious potential to be a great bonsai than starting with bad material and working on it for ten years.

Kind regards,
Darth

You have demonstrated the ability to post a picture of a seed so we know you have the ability and technology to post images to this forum, how about posting a picture of one of your trees? I'm not looking for five years down the road I'm looking to see what you have been doing. We hear from you a lot about this and that but we haven't seen an example of the kind of work you do. In fact we don't know for sure that you even have a bonsai. You should be proud to post your work considering the width and breadth of your apparent knowledge.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think a question to be asked is:

As most of us practice bonsai as a hobby, we have to establish what bonsai means to us...is bonsai about having world class kokufo ten trees, or is it about the journey to creating such a tree ?

That being asked, I think its al relative to personal perspective...hobbyists generaly practice their hobby because they like doing it, aka the journey... I like working on my trees as much as I like viewing my best trees, even if the material is bad,mediocre or awesome...

Masters will not bother with bad material because, bonsai is their livelyhood, their bread and butter. Its just not worth spending the extra time on bad material so they could create something good out of it, they will lose a lot of money...that time could be better spent on two or three trees of good to exceptional quality.

Lastly, coming back to the journey...I know the topic is if a master could create good bonsai from bad material or not...but jeez guys, why should all of our trees be world class...why not just love to work on our trees instead of rushing to be competitive with japan or europe

Anyhow...just the ravings of a South African

I agree with you but I think you will find that in this forum, the majority of the people that are members here fall into three categories: The beginner that is looking for answer to questions so they can learn bonsai and get better at growing bonsai. The more advanced growers that are looking for answers to questions so that they can grow better bonsai. Advanced people that just want to share their experiences.

The point is this in my mind: Grow bonsai the way you want to grow bonsai but don't drag people down into mediocrity because you/me/someone else resides in this realm and feels threatened because suggestions for improvement are being made. Neither should someone who i obviously advanced and capable of a lot make those obvious hobbyists feel guilty for not wanting to grow better bonsai.

 

[Poink88]

Alright Poink88, now that I have a little free time I've reconsidered your challenge. Here is my seed (no leaves yet). Let's see your bad matrerial, i.e. the no taper, scarred up, corse foliage trident maple. I mentioned, in my example, a six inch trunk but if you can only find one a little smaller that would likely be acceptable. Since I am starting from seed, I need at least five years to get something decent going, and it would more realistically take ten years for it to be well on it's way to finalizing basic structure for ramification phase. But at ten years, a tree, grown for bonsai from seed will have more obvious potential to be a great bonsai than starting with bad material and working on it for ten years.

YEY! As I have been saying, some do not have access to the best material and that is why I "dumpster dive" even online and buy "reject" cheap materials such as these. I paid for this mid-September 2012 and arrived around Sept. 20

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?9709-Separating-a-Trident-group-planting-how-and-when

These are my biggest trident bought late last year.

Original
View attachment 30768

After separation
View attachment 30769 View attachment 30770 View attachment 30771

Will any of these do?

I am afraid it is kinda cheating since I already separated them and chopped. I took 8 cuttings from these 3 trees already so I technically have (8+3=) 11... IF the cuttings take (another of my experiment).

You can use a 1 year sapling if that makes it more fair.

Should we start a thread and update it with pics say at least once a month? Let me know.

Thank you.

 

[coh]

You have demonstrated the ability to post a picture of a seed so we know you have the ability and technology to post images to this forum, how about posting a picture of one of your trees? I'm not looking for five years down the road I'm looking to see what you have been doing. We hear from you a lot about this and that but we haven't seen an example of the kind of work you do. In fact we don't know for sure that you even have a bonsai. You should be proud to post your work considering the width and breadth of your apparent knowledge.

This is starting to remind me of a situation that occurred on IBC sometime last year. A new person appeared on the scene with a "fancy" screen name (I can't remember what it was) posting all kinds of "expert" advice and commentary. But this person wouldn't post, even in general terms, where they were located, and had all kinds of reasons for not posting any of their trees. They stopped posting for a while, then reappeared under a new, equally creative screen name, posting the same kind of stuff, and refusing to show any trees. Apparently got bored after a while and stopped posting shortly thereafter, not to be seen again.

Until now, perhaps?

 

[Vance Wood]

This is starting to remind me of a situation that occurred on IBC sometime last year. A new person appeared on the scene with a "fancy" screen name (I can't remember what it was) posting all kinds of "expert" advice and commentary. But this person wouldn't post, even in general terms, where they were located, and had all kinds of reasons for not posting any of their trees. They stopped posting for a while, then reappeared under a new, equally creative screen name, posting the same kind of stuff, and refusing to show any trees. Apparently got bored after a while and stopped posting shortly thereafter, not to be seen again.

Until now, perhaps?

It has happened here a number of times as well. I really don't care if someone post a stick in a pot at least they are doing something other than telling me what to do and what I am doing wrong.

 

[rockm]

For the life of me, I really can't understand being in favor of bad material...

Silly challenges and pissing matches aside, what's the point of all this? To show how great you are at making the most of mediocre or awful material? Big effin deal. Lots of people have been doing that for decades. So what?

The point I think the OP was making (and damning him personally because he hasn't posted pics hardly refutes his argument for using better material) is that using better material is in the best interest of the artist...

This make any common sense?

 

[Darth Tanuki]

YEY! As I have been saying, some do not have access to the best material and that is why I "dumpster dive" even online and buy "reject" cheap materials such as these. I paid for this mid-September 2012 and arrived around Sept. 20

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?9709-Separating-a-Trident-group-planting-how-and-when

These are my biggest trident bought late last year.


Will any of these do?

I am afraid it is kinda cheating since I already separated them and chopped. I took 8 cuttings from these 3 trees already so I technically have (8+3=) 11... IF the cuttings take (another of my experiment).

You can use a 1 year sapling if that makes it more fair.

Should we start a thread and update it with pics say at least once a month? Let me know.

Thank you.

Actually the last tree, picture four is not bad material. It has the beginnings of a root flare which within a few years could have great nebari with good technique, and is just waiting to be chopped back and regrown. Picture two looks to be the worst of the three with some beginnings of reverse taper, no movement but not really any big scars as I was mentioning in my earlier posts. We can proceed if you wish. For me, monthly pictures might be too many. How about quarterly unless something exciting happens?

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

This is starting to remind me of a situation that occurred on IBC sometime last year. A new person appeared on the scene with a "fancy" screen name (I can't remember what it was) posting all kinds of "expert" advice and commentary. But this person wouldn't post, even in general terms, where they were located, and had all kinds of reasons for not posting any of their trees. They stopped posting for a while, then reappeared under a new, equally creative screen name, posting the same kind of stuff, and refusing to show any trees. Apparently got bored after a while and stopped posting shortly thereafter, not to be seen again.

Until now, perhaps?

Nope.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Poink88]

Picture two looks to be the worst of the three with some beginnings of reverse taper, no movement but not really any big scars as I was mentioning in my earlier posts. We can proceed if you wish. For me, monthly pictures might be too many. How about quarterly unless something exciting happens?

Sounds good!

 

[Poink88]

The point I think the OP was making (and damning him personally because he hasn't posted pics hardly refutes his argument for using better material) is that using better material is in the best interest of the artist...

For the record that is NOT what he said.

This make any common sense?

It does make perfect sense if he is saying what you assume he did...but he claims that a bad material CANNOT be made into a descent bonsai (even by a master and with time). That is my problem.

 

[subnet_rx]

I'm having trouble with the premise of this thread because if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Similarly, if bad material it turned into good material, was it ever bad material to begin with?

You could post something that everyone on this forum says is bad material, but if one person turns it into an award-winning tree, then it was never really bad material in the first place.

Maybe bad material is on a sliding scale? 70% of bonsai artists could turn this into a great bonsai tree, while only 1% could turn this one into a great tree. This one would require 25 years of growth and attention, while this one would only require 2.

DNA may prevent a tree from exhibiting some of the features of a classically-styled bonsai, but if that tree lived to be 1000 years old, could you really say that it doesn't exhibit the features of a really old tree?

Given the two variables of artist and time can change any material drastically, I would think that the only bad material...is dead material.

 

[Paulpash]

Q. How about a six foot tall pine tree, no lower branches and no taper?

A. Air layer. Rebar / guy / wire for shape. Choose new leader where denser growth lays for further development. Graft branches if needed. Time span: 20 - 30 years (depending on pine species).

How about a Japanese maple given to a bonsai professional at a convention for a demo with a straight trunk, 27 scars, branches as thick as the trunk and no leaves within 2 feet of the trunk?
Trunk chop and create uros of the scars OR ground grow and wait for them to heal. Develop apex and branching from resulting chop. Time span: 20 - 25 years

How about a 6 inch diameter trident maple with no taper, the first bend is 2 feet up the tree and turns 90 degrees to the right with another foot of trunk without taper, numerous large scars all around the tree from field sacrifice branches, and genetically long internodes and very corse foliage.

Same as above but grafting on nicer foliage. Time span: 15 - 18 years

Ok the time spans are arbitrary guesses & there are loads more variables (geography, location, skill levels, etc) but you get the idea. Nearly every fault is "correctable" with time (a heck of a lot in these cases) & technique. However, why the hell would a bonsai pro waste this amount of time just to get an OK tree? Why would anyone for that matter? No one has discussed species at all in this scenario ... a pine is a different kettle of fish to a trident is terms of speed of development & forgiving nature so a sow's ear trident could be turned into a decent tree faster than a sow's ear quince.

 

[catfish chapstick]

good material + bonsai master = bonsai A

bad material + bonsai master = bonsai B

bonsai A > bonsai B

 

[Vance Wood]

For the life of me, I really can't understand being in favor of bad material...

Silly challenges and pissing matches aside, what's the point of all this? To show how great you are at making the most of mediocre or awful material? Big effin deal. Lots of people have been doing that for decades. So what?

The point I think the OP was making (and damning him personally because he hasn't posted pics hardly refutes his argument for using better material) is that using better material is in the best interest of the artist...

This make any common sense?

I'm sorry Mark you know better than that. I don't want to show myself better than anyone, I have humiliated myself around here often enough to prove that.

 

[october]

This thread is getting a little strange, isn't it.. Have you noticed that things are going round and round, but nothing seems to be happening or getting anywhere. As far as I can tell, the main theme of this thread now will be proven quarterly when pictures are posted, if they are posted.

Darth, why not introduce yourself in another forum here. The general discussion or new section part of the forum. Tell us about your involvement with bonsai and post some of the things you are working on or have worked on. Please don't take this as I am calling you out or put up or shut up or whatever. It is just that about 90% plus of the people that join here come on, introduce themselves and post a few of their trees. I did not see you introduce yourself anywhere. There is nothing wrong with that, it is just unusual. I mean, most post a tree right out of the gate. Honestly, I can't see much more participation here, there is really nothing to discuss further. It is like hypothetically discussing a hypothetical situation..lol..I am even sure what that means.

Rob

 

[Darth Tanuki]

This thread is getting a little strange, isn't it.. Have you noticed that things are going round and round, but nothing seems to be happening or getting anywhere. As far as I can tell, the main theme of this thread now will be proven quarterly when pictures are posted, if they are posted.

Darth, why not introduce yourself in another forum here. The general discussion or new section part of the forum. Tell us about your involvement with bonsai and post some of the things you are working on or have worked on. Please don't take this as I am calling you out or put up or shut up or whatever. It is just that about 90% plus of the people that join here come on, introduce themselves and post a few of their trees. I did not see you introduce yourself anywhere. There is nothing wrong with that, it is just unusual. I mean, most post a tree right out of the gate. Honestly, I can't see much more participation here, there is really nothing to discuss further. It is like hypothetically discussing a hypothetical situation..lol..I am even sure what that means.

Rob

There is only so much they let you do from prison. The warden thought the seedling idea challenge would be good though and approved it.

Kind regards,
Darth

P.S. Just a little Sith humor.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Q. How about a six foot tall pine tree, no lower branches and no taper?

A. Air layer. Rebar / guy / wire for shape. Choose new leader where denser growth lays for further development. Graft branches if needed. Time span: 20 - 30 years (depending on pine species).

How about a Japanese maple given to a bonsai professional at a convention for a demo with a straight trunk, 27 scars, branches as thick as the trunk and no leaves within 2 feet of the trunk?
Trunk chop and create uros of the scars OR ground grow and wait for them to heal. Develop apex and branching from resulting chop. Time span: 20 - 25 years

How about a 6 inch diameter trident maple with no taper, the first bend is 2 feet up the tree and turns 90 degrees to the right with another foot of trunk without taper, numerous large scars all around the tree from field sacrifice branches, and genetically long internodes and very corse foliage.

Same as above but grafting on nicer foliage. Time span: 15 - 18 years

Ok the time spans are arbitrary guesses & there are loads more variables (geography, location, skill levels, etc) but you get the idea. Nearly every fault is "correctable" with time (a heck of a lot in these cases) & technique. However, why the hell would a bonsai pro waste this amount of time just to get an OK tree? Why would anyone for that matter? No one has discussed species at all in this scenario ... a pine is a different kettle of fish to a trident is terms of speed of development & forgiving nature so a sow's ear trident could be turned into a decent tree faster than a sow's ear quince.

It all depends on how much your time is worth. Nothing wrong with a project tree. I do believe though, time is the one variable we all take for granted the first ten or more years we are in this hobby and then we realize that time is the most important asset we have. So, if you are immortal, please disregard this thread.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

For the record that is NOT what he said.


It does make perfect sense if he is saying what you assume he did...but he claims that a bad material CANNOT be made into a descent bonsai (even by a master and with time). That is my problem.

Fine. I will admit after 30 to 40 long years of hard work, the margin starts to narrow. 2053 will be a very good year.

Kind regards,
By then, old and decrepit Darth