Bad Material + Bonsai Master = Bad Material

[Vance Wood]

Well crafted is the key point, but not all tanuki are. And you are correct, you don't have any pictures of my trees.

You alone can solve that.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Let me play devil's advocate with you. It is a matter of perception. With the exception of a seedling with two leaves on it, there is not too much out there that may be universally considered bad material. I have seen a couple of real nice bonsai made out of material most of us would have rejected for various reasons. The real problem as I see it is in the fact we too often claim something is bad material when we simply don't have an idea what to do with it.

How about a six foot tall pine tree, no lower branches and no taper?

How about a Japanese maple given to a bonsai professional at a convention for a demo with a straight trunk, 27 scars, branches as thick as the trunk and no leaves within 2 feet of the trunk?

How about a 6 inch diameter trident maple with no taper, the first bend is 2 feet up the tree and turns 90 degrees to the right with another foot of trunk without taper, numerous large scars all around the tree from field sacrifice branches, and genetically long internodes and very corse foliage.

These are all very common examples of material available that people may spend a lifetime fixing. For experimentation and learning that's fine. Else they are a waste of time and talent. I would much rather have the seedling with two leaves and start over. You'll get a better result quicker, with less frustration and more satisfaction.

Perhaps a focus of our education needs to be the recognition of good material and bad material. We are so quick to wanting to jump into learning carving and big bending techniques. Maybe we need to slow down and focus on basics such as good material recognition.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

You alone can solve that.

I hope so.

 

[Poink88]

How about a six foot tall pine tree, no lower branches and no taper?

How about a Japanese maple given to a bonsai professional at a convention for a demo with a straight trunk, 27 scars, branches as thick as the trunk and no leaves within 2 feet of the trunk?

How about a 6 inch diameter trident maple with no taper, the first bend is 2 feet up the tree and turns 90 degrees to the right with another foot of trunk without taper, numerous large scars all around the tree from field sacrifice branches, and genetically long internodes and very corse foliage.

These are all very common examples of material available that people may spend a lifetime fixing. For experimentation and learning that's fine. Else they are a waste of time and talent. I would much rather have the seedling with two leaves and start over. You'll get a better result quicker, with less frustration and more satisfaction.

Perhaps a focus of our education needs to be the recognition of good material and bad material. We are so quick to wanting to jump into learning carving and big bending techniques. Maybe we need to slow down and focus on basics such as good material recognition.

Kind regards,
Darth

Now you are talking about workshop demo? You just keep changing the playing filed as you like don't you?

How about this. You give me the straight problematic trident maple and you start with a seedling w/ 2 leaves. Lets meet in 2 or 5 years (your choice) and see which one of us have a better tree. You seem to be a "master" but I (a newbie) challenge you.

 

[Dav4]

How about a six foot tall pine tree, no lower branches and no taper?

How about a Japanese maple given to a bonsai professional at a convention for a demo with a straight trunk, 27 scars, branches as thick as the trunk and no leaves within 2 feet of the trunk?

How about a 6 inch diameter trident maple with no taper, the first bend is 2 feet up the tree and turns 90 degrees to the right with another foot of trunk without taper, numerous large scars all around the tree from field sacrifice branches, and genetically long internodes and very corse foliage.

These are all very common examples of material available that people may spend a lifetime fixing. For experimentation and learning that's fine. Else they are a waste of time and talent. I would much rather have the seedling with two leaves and start over. You'll get a better result quicker, with less frustration and more satisfaction.

Perhaps a focus of our education needs to be the recognition of good material and bad material. We are so quick to wanting to jump into learning carving and big bending techniques. Maybe we need to slow down and focus on basics such as good material recognition.

Kind regards,
Darth

I'm with you, Darth.

 

[berobinson82]

Allow me to grab some popcorn....


I think the forum IS punchy waiting for spring.

 

[Poink88]

Perhaps a focus of our education needs to be the recognition of good material and bad material. We are so quick to wanting to jump into learning carving and big bending techniques. Maybe we need to slow down and focus on basics such as good material recognition.

The problem is you FAIL to see the potential where others see one and you keep insisting that there is nothing there. I agree you better start on that class...maybe you will see what we see after a while.

No one questions the great materials...everybody wants those but some do not have access to or cannot afford them and have to start somewhere. Between the seedling and the problematic trident maple...I will take the problematic trident anytime of the day.

THE FRIENDLY CHALLENGE STANDS (so you won't miss this) if you care to put what you preach to the test.

 

[catfish chapstick]

when we look for potential in material, do we not ask:

how long will it take me to make something of this?

if the answer is thirty years maybe we would be smart to keep looking. aim for twenty years. fifteen years if its better. we don't live forever.

 

[coh]

Allow me to grab some popcorn....


I think the forum IS punchy waiting for spring.

I think you're right!

 

[Vance Wood]

when we look for potential in material, do we not ask:

how long will it take me to make something of this?

if the answer is thirty years maybe we would be smart to keep looking. aim for twenty years. fifteen years if its better. we don't live forever.

I don't, but I can't speak for others, consider how long it will take to make a bonsai, just to whether it can.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

The problem is you FAIL to see the potential where others see one and you keep insisting that there is nothing there. I agree you better start on that class...maybe you will see what we see after a while.

No one questions the great materials...everybody wants those but some do not have access to or cannot afford them and have to start somewhere. Between the seedling and the problematic trident maple...I will take the problematic trident anytime of the day.

THE FRIENDLY CHALLENGE STANDS (so you won't miss this) if you care to put what you preach to the test.

Just because someone can't afford great material does not change my assertion. I'm am suggesting that if you can, get better material.

I have no desire to add an extra project to my schedule to teach you anything Poink88. I would encourage you to try both over the next five to ten years and see which one you like better.

 

[Poink88]

I have no desire to add an extra project to my schedule to teach you anything Poink88. I would encourage you to try both over the next five to ten years and see which one you like better.

I didn't expect much from you...and you sure did not disappoint. LOLZ

Thank you.

 

[cascade]

Food for thought

If you start with bad material, no matter who works on it, it will still be bad material. Just wondering where everybody stands on this thought.

Kind regards,
Darth

It's kinda like with "pigs in a blanket". You can serve them in a croissant or pancake or any dough or buns. With buns the pigs become dogs.. Whether it's pigs or dogs, it's always some kind of a sausage and I just go ahead and eat them..

-Dorothy

 

[Vance Wood]

I hope so.

Well why don't you? Are you just talking from the point of view of what you have read, and studied from books magazines and maybe personal discussions with others, or is your point of view from having done the work and made these assumptions from your own experiences, or from your imagination as to how you think things should be, can be and could be? There is a proverb that states: Great claims demand great proofs.

 

[october]

It's kinda like with "pigs in a blanket". You can serve them in a croissant or pancake or any dough or buns. With buns the pigs become dogs.. Whether it's pigs or dogs, it's always some kind of a sausage and I just go ahead and eat them..

-Dorothy

lol.. This is great. I guess the moral is when life throws you piggies, you make bacon.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

lol.. This is great. I guess the moral is when life throws you piggies, you make bacon.

Rob

Or Pizza! That way you have something you can do with all of the fruit you have had tossed at you as well.

 

[Zaelthus]

I remember reading this amazing post on internet bonsai club that showed the progression of what was basically a log in a pot, no taper, and poor initial branching. After carving, burning, back budding, and time, the end result was amazing. Can't find the post for the life of me...The artist was skilled to say the least.

Then there is always these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSnRm7PicYs&list=UUPb-Tj0QB5fz-oSPYDva9tQ&index=17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMgINx3EK8U&list=UUPb-Tj0QB5fz-oSPYDva9tQ&index=8

Or this....

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t2819p15-my-thuja-smaragd?highlight=thuja

I'm sure 10 more minutes of sifting through forums and youtube would find countless more examples.

 

[milehigh_7]

I wonder if, at the end of the day the phony Sith has some financial reason behind this post. My guess is some portion of the supply chain of yamadori for which if we can all agree you can't have bonsai without, this person will make some $$$.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I wonder if, at the end of the day the phony Sith has some financial reason behind this post. My guess is some portion of the supply chain of yamadori for which if we can all agree you can't have bonsai without, this person will make some $$$.

Wow. Quite an impressive imagination.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Now you are talking about workshop demo? You just keep changing the playing filed as you like don't you?

How about this. You give me the straight problematic trident maple and you start with a seedling w/ 2 leaves. Lets meet in 2 or 5 years (your choice) and see which one of us have a better tree. You seem to be a "master" but I (a newbie) challenge you.

Alright Poink88, now that I have a little free time I've reconsidered your challenge. Here is my seed (no leaves yet). Let's see your bad matrerial, i.e. the no taper, scarred up, corse foliage trident maple. I mentioned, in my example, a six inch trunk but if you can only find one a little smaller that would likely be acceptable. Since I am starting from seed, I need at least five years to get something decent going, and it would more realistically take ten years for it to be well on it's way to finalizing basic structure for ramification phase. But at ten years, a tree, grown for bonsai from seed will have more obvious potential to be a great bonsai than starting with bad material and working on it for ten years.

Kind regards,
Darth