Making my rounds of the nurseries in late fall I came across a laceleaf that caught my eye. It has a nice sized trunk and what looked like the start of nebari, and most importantly had a few really nice leaves growing off a branch well under the graft (the graft is really high on this tree, maybe 1.5 feet up). Neither the trunk nor leaves looked like plain vanilla acer palmatum (not that this really matters to me). It could make a nice landscape tree, but I want to use the rootstock for a bonsai. I don't see why this wouldn't work, but wanted to confirm. Let me know your thoughts. I'll try to locate some pics
Backbud from Rootstock
- Thread starter dbonsaiw
- Start date
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
I have one I’m planning on air layering off the top with a little of the rootstock left under it and keep the trunk for bonsai. Looks like we will be seeing how it works out together
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
There is nothing wrong with using rootstock for bonsai, however you just have to accept that the rootstock won't have the same characteristics as the scion cultivar.
This could be bad, or not an issue, depending. Usually rootstock is chosen for favorable characteristics which often include, health, strength, and rate of growth. So you might have a JM that is a dwarf cultivar, but the rootstock is significantly stronger. It may not matter to you if the tree does what you want it to do
Note that with some tree species the rootstock may be a completely different tree species, so you might have a completely different experience. I noticed this particularly with my citrus trees in Southern California. As an example check out this listing for C-35 citrus rootstock. Note how they specifically call out the impact on tree size, fruit yield, and resistance to disease and pests... and the fact that it is a poncirus/citrus hybrid. So if you decided to create a citrus bonsai off your rootstock, it might not even bloom... and there is no guarantee it would fruit. And yet the same rootstock could be used to grow oranges, lemons, limes, and grapefruits(!)
Strange but true, there are trees out there with 40 different cultivars grafted on a single rootstock. A fun experiment that requires a lot of labor... but it can be done. I had a peach tree in landscape that had three different cultivars of peaches on a single tree. It was a PITA... because one cultivar was stronger than the others and kept needing to be trimmed back in order to balance strength across the three cultivars and prevent the dominant one from taking over.
This could be bad, or not an issue, depending. Usually rootstock is chosen for favorable characteristics which often include, health, strength, and rate of growth. So you might have a JM that is a dwarf cultivar, but the rootstock is significantly stronger. It may not matter to you if the tree does what you want it to do
Note that with some tree species the rootstock may be a completely different tree species, so you might have a completely different experience. I noticed this particularly with my citrus trees in Southern California. As an example check out this listing for C-35 citrus rootstock. Note how they specifically call out the impact on tree size, fruit yield, and resistance to disease and pests... and the fact that it is a poncirus/citrus hybrid. So if you decided to create a citrus bonsai off your rootstock, it might not even bloom... and there is no guarantee it would fruit. And yet the same rootstock could be used to grow oranges, lemons, limes, and grapefruits(!)
Strange but true, there are trees out there with 40 different cultivars grafted on a single rootstock. A fun experiment that requires a lot of labor... but it can be done. I had a peach tree in landscape that had three different cultivars of peaches on a single tree. It was a PITA... because one cultivar was stronger than the others and kept needing to be trimmed back in order to balance strength across the three cultivars and prevent the dominant one from taking over.
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BrightsideB
Omono
May be good to airlayer right under the graft on the rootstock since the cultivars don’t always air layer as nice and you get the genetically dominant root stock.
I had no idea one could graft a tree onto a different species of tree (but I guess that's done with fruit trees all the time?). I have no need for the scion on mine and given that its a laceleaf I'm not even sure it could even be air layered off. I just want the rootstock; the rest will become mulch. It's for sure an acer palmatum rootstock, I just have no idea what kind.
Apropos of what 19MATEO83 said, how does the trunk of a tree survive while the top of the tree is being layered off and no foliage is left under the layer? My understanding is that the layer allows water and nutrients up, but not carbohydrates down, thereby forcing the layer to grow roots. Wouldn't this effectively choke off the bottom of the tree? Will the tree just backbud under the layer to allow photosynthesis?
Apropos of what 19MATEO83 said, how does the trunk of a tree survive while the top of the tree is being layered off and no foliage is left under the layer? My understanding is that the layer allows water and nutrients up, but not carbohydrates down, thereby forcing the layer to grow roots. Wouldn't this effectively choke off the bottom of the tree? Will the tree just backbud under the layer to allow photosynthesis?
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
Grafting is a very common practice in horticulture, many of the acer palmatum cultivars are grafted. Air layering is also very common and yes the tree will back bud using the stored nutrients in the roots.
Agree. Most of the cultivars i've seen are actually grafted. My question was if you layer off all of the foliage will the tree backbud while the airlayer is going or will it just survive and backbud once the layer is removed?
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
I would think it would start back budding while the layer is still attached but you never know. It’s hard to predict how some plants will react. If you already have a branch below the graft you are good
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Let's think about this. We (should) know that auxin is produced by buds and foliage. It proceeds Doreen the tree toward the roots in the cambium (the Polar Auxin Transport stream) as well as in the phloem (inner bark) sap. Auxin in the PAT stream tends to suppress bud break.
When a stem is girdled, the bark, phloem, and cambium are removed.
When a stem is decapitated/pruned, the buds and foliage (as well as the associated bark, phloem, and cambium) is removed.
...
A complication may arise from there being no phloem sap feeding the roots.
When a stem is girdled, the bark, phloem, and cambium are removed.
When a stem is decapitated/pruned, the buds and foliage (as well as the associated bark, phloem, and cambium) is removed.
...
A complication may arise from there being no phloem sap feeding the roots.
That was my initial thought and why I wasn't sure if the tree under the girdle would survive without any sap flow down to the roots. Having no first-hand experience with this just yet, I wasn't sure if disruption of the flow (no auxins in the PAT stream) would cause the area below the girdle to push out some shoots.
I guess the more straight forward question is what happens to the rootstock when one does a ground layer and takes everything off? Does it push out shoots below the layer? Does the rootstock die? Does it push out shoots once the layer is removed? Inquiring minds want to know.
Michael P
Omono
There is your answer. The root stock is already growing leaves and should recover if the scion is air layered s or just cut off.
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
This is very similar to coppicing. Trees get coppiced all the time naturally and recover by producing multiple trunks. It is also a common agricultural tool for producing a sustainable source of firewood. I know maples do react well to it.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
With maples, there must be a (pre-existing) node 'down there'. Other species may be different. Some will produce new shoots from root tissue that we would otherwise call 'suckers' and are ones that might be propagated by root cuttings (elm and camellia are examples).
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Maples back bud on bare wood quite well but as @0soyoung points out there must be a dormant bud for new shoots to form on maple. Some other species are able to produce buds from cambuim so can shoot anywhere.
It appears there is already a shoot on the base of this tree so there's very little risk when chopping this one.
The real question would appear to be why chop a perfectly good grafted tree. Surely you can find better JM material with a decent trunk and some branching at around the same price as a grafted weeping AP?
Chopping a trunk is just the first of many steps in producing a good bonsai. Don't underestimate the years of work and possible problems that can occur during that time.
It appears there is already a shoot on the base of this tree so there's very little risk when chopping this one.
The real question would appear to be why chop a perfectly good grafted tree. Surely you can find better JM material with a decent trunk and some branching at around the same price as a grafted weeping AP?
Chopping a trunk is just the first of many steps in producing a good bonsai. Don't underestimate the years of work and possible problems that can occur during that time.
Alas, I have had very poor luck so far finding better JM material. With a 2" trunk, I thought this was cheap enough to play around with. I also dug down a bit at the nursery and saw nice radial roots which were "pulling" the trunk at the base.
Please point me to the better material.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
There's plenty here but I am half way round the world from you so no use whatsoever.
I am aware that in some places good material is harder to find so you will have to work with what you can find until something better turns up. Just thought there could be some ungrafted JM intended for landscape material at some nurseries but not all places have a good choice if there are fewer large gardens in the area.
Even less than ideal material will be useful to learn techniques so have fun with this one.
Perhaps this is a silly question, but what is meant by "good material"? What are some of the defining characteristics of "good material" when we are discussing pre-bonsai or early stage bonsai? Some of the lessons I learned from this thread would be (i) trees with existing lower branching; and (ii) perhaps some movement in the lower trunk. As far as nebari is concerned, I haven't come across many trees yet where the nebari is readily visible (i.e., the nebari likely hasn't been worked on). What else?
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
There's a wide range of good. So much depends on individual expectations and what you can actually get hold of.
The factors you mentioned are all part of 'good' attributes but I'd also add taper or the possibility to prune to develop taper (branches in the right spot that can replace the thicker main trunk).
A tree with all these attributes will be a great starter.
Trees with most of those would be good.
Trees with only 1 or 2 attributes are less than ideal but can still be used but will take longer while you remediate the missing items. New roots can be developed or grafted, taper can be added by pruning, bends can be added by pruning, reduction chops take years to heal, branches can be grown or grafted if required but all those things take time and effort that can be avoided if better starting material is chosen.
Bonsai with one or more of the ideal features missing are still bonsai but maybe not as high quality as another with all the best features.
The factors you mentioned are all part of 'good' attributes but I'd also add taper or the possibility to prune to develop taper (branches in the right spot that can replace the thicker main trunk).
A tree with all these attributes will be a great starter.
Trees with most of those would be good.
Trees with only 1 or 2 attributes are less than ideal but can still be used but will take longer while you remediate the missing items. New roots can be developed or grafted, taper can be added by pruning, bends can be added by pruning, reduction chops take years to heal, branches can be grown or grafted if required but all those things take time and effort that can be avoided if better starting material is chosen.
Bonsai with one or more of the ideal features missing are still bonsai but maybe not as high quality as another with all the best features.
As I live in NY and the internet gives me access to the entire US, it must be that I am not yet trained to discern what is good material. I suspect I will need to work with some trees and see how they progress to better understand what I could have started with in the first place.
