JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
They can be wonderful trees, just a bit tricky. Be careful of ferts early in the spring before leaves harden.
Keep us updated!
Keep us updated!
American Beech
- Thread starter Giga
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Giga
Masterpiece
Would you get burning, or too large leaves?
erb.75
Chumono
Son of a beech? Or is it a son of a birch? It could be the best ash that a bird dips his pecker into...
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Yes, burning. The way they store/use salts is different than most trees. I would not use a chemical fert early for sure. Also you may want to use Kanuma soil, or at least incorporate it in your mix. I've got mine (EU) in almost straight kanuma, and the leaves are so much better now. I used to have problems with leaf health, but the things I've learned have cured that issue. The other issue is wind. Keep it out of the wind before leaves harden.
Giga
Masterpiece
Cool thanks yeah I've read the same thing, not sure if I'll repot it next year as I just collected it but new collected I'll put it in kanuma based soil.
symbiotic1
Mame
JudyB I'm curious how they handle salts differently and what would necessitate the Kanuma in the mix? I have a beech as well so the knowledge would be helpful, especially when it comes time to repot it.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Here is something I snagged out of a topic I started on a problem I was having with my leaves one year. Paul 63pmp on IBC saw the same problem with his beech and gave me the following advice. Here's an excerpt, and a link to the thread.
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t13547-second-flush-beech-problem
What are you fertilizing with?
I had a similar thing happen to my Beech this year.
I put it down to too much ammonium early in the season. I'll be doing some pot trials in spring to see how changing fertilizer regime effects growth.
There has been some interesting research being down on beech trees over the last ten years. They are ammonium specialists in that they are extremely good at taking NH4 up from dilute solutions. They are also very poor at regulating uptake if solution concentrations are high, leading to ammonium toxicity. This has all sorts of impacts, it inhibits K, Mg and Ca uptake, increases ethylene production in root and shoots, and increases sodium and chloride uptake. It also causes a marked decrease in stored sugars. This all causes reduced leaf growth and marginal leaf burn.
Temperature is a very big factor in rate of ammonium uptake, so be careful fertilizing in spring when soil temps are between 10-15 C. Uptake at 10 C is 30% of maximum, while they reach maximum ammonium uptake at 15 C.
I'll post up some research papers later that are interesting, though technical.
Paul
Last edited by 63pmp on Wed May 29, 2013 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification)
63pmp
Member
Posts: 137
Joined date: 2010-07-09
Location: Australia
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t13547-second-flush-beech-problem
What are you fertilizing with?
I had a similar thing happen to my Beech this year.
I put it down to too much ammonium early in the season. I'll be doing some pot trials in spring to see how changing fertilizer regime effects growth.
There has been some interesting research being down on beech trees over the last ten years. They are ammonium specialists in that they are extremely good at taking NH4 up from dilute solutions. They are also very poor at regulating uptake if solution concentrations are high, leading to ammonium toxicity. This has all sorts of impacts, it inhibits K, Mg and Ca uptake, increases ethylene production in root and shoots, and increases sodium and chloride uptake. It also causes a marked decrease in stored sugars. This all causes reduced leaf growth and marginal leaf burn.
Temperature is a very big factor in rate of ammonium uptake, so be careful fertilizing in spring when soil temps are between 10-15 C. Uptake at 10 C is 30% of maximum, while they reach maximum ammonium uptake at 15 C.
I'll post up some research papers later that are interesting, though technical.
Paul
Last edited by 63pmp on Wed May 29, 2013 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification)
63pmp
Member
Posts: 137
Joined date: 2010-07-09
Location: Australia
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Another excerpt from an old beech thread on IBC, great advice given to me from Jay, (drgonzo) over there he has been pretty good at the beech game. link to thread as well.
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12841-american-beech-as-bonsai
Re: American Beech as Bonsai?
drgonzo on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:45 pm
This species is by far and away my favorite headache!
I've been working with F. grandifolia for many years now and have had good success. They are indeed very slow to develop and you must plot their course years ahead of time, using sap drawers and some limited bud pinching to help keep internodes short. Leaves will reduce fairly well once you start to get good ramification.
I allow all buds to grow and fully extend on a branch that I'm developing and I only prune back the spring growth to one or two leaves on the bud nearest or second nearest to the trunk to help shorten its internodes. Once the overall branch has reached desired thickness I will then prune back to that one special bud and refine the branch further. But this can take years so its like your developing one bud to become one branch with short internodes to keep as the finished branch and letting everything else go crazy with the idea being to one day cut back to that finished branch you've been pinching/pruning for years...I hope that makes sense.
My American Beeches love pure kanuma soil and one should be careful to allow several years recovery after collecting as they are slow to grow roots. Basically everything you can do in one season to say a Maple will take three seasons on American Beech, think of it that way.
A healthy Beech can be defoliated every two years say, however be careful to leave a leaf on the tip of each branch to draw sap so the branch doesn't die back. New buds will be produced with this procedure along the trunk usually but they will not actually extend until NEXT year. The new leaves that grow in after the defoliation are repulsive so this technique is only useful for gaining ramification not in reducing leaves as one does when we defoliate a Maple.
In talking with Jack Sustic about the American Beech in the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum he recommended a mix of akadama and grit for soil and he feeds his Beech Dyna grow 7-9-5. I have personally found American Beech to be prone to Potassium deficiency when grown in containers so it helps to treat them early in the spring with a product like pro-tek 0-0-3.
I have also found them to be highly salt intolerant so feed with low doses if using chemical ferts. They are also very light feeders (having only one growth spurt per year) so fertilize lightly (once a month half strength and do not feed in the heat of the summer.) This year I'm trying Bio gold with just my Beeches to help prevent salt burns..ALL my other trees can take chemical ferts without an issue but the American Beeches will display salt toxicities very very easily. Also watch out for Beech Bark disease transmitted via scale insects and at the first sign of any scale on the tree pick them all off and treat with a anti fungal systemic as the disease can be fatal. It would be a horror to loose a tree after 10-15 years of work just when things were starting to look decent.
I currently have a nice specimen I've been working with for 4 going on 5 years now and a forrest that is three years old. Neither will be near show condition for probably another decade. I found it took me about three years alone just to learn how to grow them and keep them happy in a container.
Its a labor of love with this species as they will teach you the meaning of patience. I hope my info has helped a bit.
-Jay
_________________
"May all the branches you snap be ones you can live without."
drgonzo
Member
Posts: 1400
Joined date: 2011-08-14
Age: 39
Location: Penn Yan, NY
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12841-american-beech-as-bonsai
Re: American Beech as Bonsai?
This species is by far and away my favorite headache!
I've been working with F. grandifolia for many years now and have had good success. They are indeed very slow to develop and you must plot their course years ahead of time, using sap drawers and some limited bud pinching to help keep internodes short. Leaves will reduce fairly well once you start to get good ramification.
I allow all buds to grow and fully extend on a branch that I'm developing and I only prune back the spring growth to one or two leaves on the bud nearest or second nearest to the trunk to help shorten its internodes. Once the overall branch has reached desired thickness I will then prune back to that one special bud and refine the branch further. But this can take years so its like your developing one bud to become one branch with short internodes to keep as the finished branch and letting everything else go crazy with the idea being to one day cut back to that finished branch you've been pinching/pruning for years...I hope that makes sense.
My American Beeches love pure kanuma soil and one should be careful to allow several years recovery after collecting as they are slow to grow roots. Basically everything you can do in one season to say a Maple will take three seasons on American Beech, think of it that way.
A healthy Beech can be defoliated every two years say, however be careful to leave a leaf on the tip of each branch to draw sap so the branch doesn't die back. New buds will be produced with this procedure along the trunk usually but they will not actually extend until NEXT year. The new leaves that grow in after the defoliation are repulsive so this technique is only useful for gaining ramification not in reducing leaves as one does when we defoliate a Maple.
In talking with Jack Sustic about the American Beech in the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum he recommended a mix of akadama and grit for soil and he feeds his Beech Dyna grow 7-9-5. I have personally found American Beech to be prone to Potassium deficiency when grown in containers so it helps to treat them early in the spring with a product like pro-tek 0-0-3.
I have also found them to be highly salt intolerant so feed with low doses if using chemical ferts. They are also very light feeders (having only one growth spurt per year) so fertilize lightly (once a month half strength and do not feed in the heat of the summer.) This year I'm trying Bio gold with just my Beeches to help prevent salt burns..ALL my other trees can take chemical ferts without an issue but the American Beeches will display salt toxicities very very easily. Also watch out for Beech Bark disease transmitted via scale insects and at the first sign of any scale on the tree pick them all off and treat with a anti fungal systemic as the disease can be fatal. It would be a horror to loose a tree after 10-15 years of work just when things were starting to look decent.
I currently have a nice specimen I've been working with for 4 going on 5 years now and a forrest that is three years old. Neither will be near show condition for probably another decade. I found it took me about three years alone just to learn how to grow them and keep them happy in a container.
Its a labor of love with this species as they will teach you the meaning of patience. I hope my info has helped a bit.
-Jay
_________________
"May all the branches you snap be ones you can live without."
drgonzo
Member
Posts: 1400
Joined date: 2011-08-14
Age: 39
Location: Penn Yan, NY
Giga
Masterpiece
good info, I've feed with cottonseed meal, fish emulation, and osmocote. Haven't any issue with anything just yet, but I use more organics then chem ferts.
discusmike
Omono
Judy is spot on,mine never grew well in my standard mix that all my other deciduous trees grew in,even with pine bark added,I decided one spring to mix leaf mold from the woods behind my house where they were collected into the mix,that was the missing link for me,they started to grow strong and look healthy that season,never tried kanuma,but sounds like a winner.
Giga
Masterpiece
yeah, this winter when I buy my soil components for spring kanuma is gonna be in that order, maybe a lot of it as I'm thinking a American beech forest!
augustine
Chumono
I spoke with an accomplished bonsai expert at the ABS Symposium in June and that person feels that generally the leaves are too large and difficult to reduce. However one may be able to find trees with genetically smaller leaves that make good bonsai.
I agree they are beautiful and easy to grow.
I agree they are beautiful and easy to grow.
Giga
Masterpiece
Honestly though I don't mind the larger leaves, and I'm going to find some larger trees this year for collection next year.
Giga
Masterpiece
Just watering the garden this morning and saw the biggest assasin bug I've ever seen
Anyway Judy, I think this is the problem you where talking about with leaves, the side facing the sun/wind have slightly yellow leaves while the back is straight green.
I may slip pot it next year into kanuma mix and remove the top layer of soil as well. Buds are healthy and tons of them. I'll update again when out of leaf with a good background and camera
Anyway Judy, I think this is the problem you where talking about with leaves, the side facing the sun/wind have slightly yellow leaves while the back is straight green.
I may slip pot it next year into kanuma mix and remove the top layer of soil as well. Buds are healthy and tons of them. I'll update again when out of leaf with a good background and camera
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
I've collected several and lost a few trying to move them along as fast as my other collected deciduous trees. They definitely need more time to get established after collection. The one I'm working on now is three years post collection, and just had it's first strong summer of growth. I may start working it next spring.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
How did you get that leaf so small?
Giga
Masterpiece
Yeah that's why I'll just be slip potting, I won't be touching the roots. I'll will be definitely be collecting a few more this coming spring and i'll be hunting this winter.
you talking about my massive picture there? I can't tell if your serious or not?
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Nice colors starting for you there. I had the best leaf year ever this season for my beeches, second year in Kanuma. I don't have any scorch or mottling this year. Between that and figuring out the spring fertilizer regimen that they like, I am pretty happy now even at the end of the season.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
I love the autumn colours on deciduous this time of year and Beech and Hornbeam are two of my favourites at the moment, native trees rock eh bud
Txhorticulture
Chumono
It's native if you live in china. I like the beech. I've thought about getting one. Supposedly the stands in east texas are in decline
