Acer palmatum
- Thread starter ConorDash
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Paulpash
Masterpiece
This is one of those things that people on a forum can't really resolve - micro climate + substrate. What combo works for you?
Have you tried different spots? I couldn't find your benches?
Have you tried different spots? I couldn't find your benches?
Paulpash
Masterpiece
Remember we live in the UK though, @derek7745. Our highest temperature IN RECORDED HISTORY was last week : 38.7C. It very rarely goes over 28C where I am - I'd say @ConorDash in London would be slightly hotter by 2-3 degrees at most. This week the max temperature in Doncaster will be 24C. The shade cloth could help during the odd hotter days but I'd be wary of keeping them there permanently.nice garden Conor!
and of course you're spot on! based on what i have learned from people keeping maples for +30 years (and my own 3 years of experience confirms it), the ideal situation is 'direct' sun from sun-rise to sun-set, under a minimal shade cloth (or polyethylene tarp) at the peak of summer, and without the shade-cloth in spring and fall
i have visited even very respectable growers who say "sorry they look like this, their leaves always burn when we have such bad luck with the weather".... but it sounds like they have this 'bad luck' year after year! By contrast, the growers using greenhouses or shade cloths have trees that look spectacular at the peak of summer and fall, and no bad luck despite the same weather
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KiwiPlantGuy
Omono
Hi Conner,
I want to share my opinion here as I have been reading your thread over the last couple of years or so, and am concerned you “may” be loving this maple to death. You have talked about this tree not being very strong a couple of posts back, and I don’t like seeing someone’s tree going backwards without a need to comment.
My comments below may be a little rough, so apologies in advance.
1. Root problem - this shows itself by the tree not “happily” growing and doing 2 flushes per year etc. And the weird “crinkly” leaves on yours - that I have not seen before.
2. This is connected to #1 - if your soil is the same particle size as in the photos I am concerned it is too SMALL, eg- holds too much moisture in the bottom half of the pot as you have a deepish pot. So even though it drains well, and the media looks dry on top, the bottom half may stay wet all the time - eg wet roots and not enough oxygen etc.
3. How much do you fertilise? As inorganic media doesn’t hold nutrients so you flush 6 days and feed on the 7th (example ) - not much food.
This is what I would do, although others would say I am worried for little reason.
- Give the tree a rest for at least 1-2 years, let it grow like a hedgehog , then start again.
- Repot if needed into same pot or a wide shallow box.
-Too much work on a weak tree = dying tree
. My 2 cents from a “too many” years growing plants/trees etc.
Charles
Originally the maple was more in the middle of the garden, getting more direct light for longer. Now it’s at the back of the corner of trees you see in the pics, lower down so it’s getting much less sun (a reactive measure, too late).
I’ve not got benches. I’ve not yet managed to build a proper bench for all. Bobby has told me many times.. but they are now all elevated and off ground at least
Thanks for the posts. It is interesting and my thinking did tend to be more your theory, not to say we are right at all! Lol but in my mind, that’s at least what I had learnt and put together from a few years of reading and discussion.
Hi Conner,
I want to share my opinion here as I have been reading your thread over the last couple of years or so, and am concerned you “may” be loving this maple to death. You have talked about this tree not being very strong a couple of posts back, and I don’t like seeing someone’s tree going backwards without a need to comment.
My comments below may be a little rough, so apologies in advance.
1. Root problem - this shows itself by the tree not “happily” growing and doing 2 flushes per year etc. And the weird “crinkly” leaves on yours - that I have not seen before.
2. This is connected to #1 - if your soil is the same particle size as in the photos I am concerned it is too SMALL, eg- holds too much moisture in the bottom half of the pot as you have a deepish pot. So even though it drains well, and the media looks dry on top, the bottom half may stay wet all the time - eg wet roots and not enough oxygen etc.
3. How much do you fertilise? As inorganic media doesn’t hold nutrients so you flush 6 days and feed on the 7th (example ) - not much food.
This is what I would do, although others would say I am worried for little reason.
- Give the tree a rest for at least 1-2 years, let it grow like a hedgehog , then start again.
- Repot if needed into same pot or a wide shallow box.
-Too much work on a weak tree = dying tree
My 2 cents from a “too many” years growing plants/trees etc.
Charles
Thank you for the post. By no means was anything you said bad or not to my liking (not that that should matter!). You’ve given me some bits to think about.
I fertilise with liquid fert maybe once a week or 2. The concentration is same ratio as on the box. It could be stronger and could fert more frequently! I know..
It also has organic fert pellets on the surface of substrate. Go through 2-3 batches of the organic fert over the season.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
Both heat and light intensity are perfectly fine for maples in the UK with correct substrate, wind protection and watering. Here's a selection of some of my MAPLES that have been in full sun all year; I couldn't find one burnt leaf despite having more light than Mexico City LOL
London is about 2 degrees warmer on average. It's strange someone on another continent to you quoting weather stats and it's relationship to growing conditions don't you think? There's a big downside to using shade cloth too 
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AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
I suppose so : I have a "field maple", a form of Acer campestre, that I defoliated in late June. For several weeks, it stayed in full sun most of the day. The leaves were either pale or reddish. After two days in the shade, they were green.
It's the same with several Acer palmatum that I moved from 75% sun to 15% sun.
Both heat and light intensity are perfectly fine for maples in the UK with correct substrate, wind protection and watering. Here's a selection of some of my MAPLES that have been in full sun all year; I couldn't find one burnt leaf despite having more light than Mexico City LOL
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Im just trying to stay civil and open minded here. Both sides of this have valuable information, and if they don’t, there’s something valuable to learn in why they don’t.
The plan is already to bareroot and repot the maple this coming spring, so that’s good.
On your recommendation, I’ll seive our the smaller particles of my mix so it’ll be just medium size particles and small percentage of bark. I add sphagnum to the top when necessary, this maple had moss on top last year, it did a great job of creating many surface roots.
I will also check my watering on it more thoroughly, making sure it gets just a bit more water than I was thinking.
I believe you, when you say something surrounding it’s potting medium, watering, was a problem and played a part in its appearance.
I believe the wind and weather also played a part. Maybe if my watering and substrate were perfect (which is somewhat impossible), the weather wouldn’t have affected it.
Maybe if the weather wasn’t as harsh in terms of wind and sun, it’d have forgiven my mistakes.
Just a balance to find, which I have not yet
Just wanted to share my limited experience with you @ConorDash , just in case you may find it at all useful:
I'm in Norway, we have the sun up for longer in summer than most countries anywhere in the world.
In June it doesn't get dark at all here, just a slight dusk for a few hours before the sun comes back up again.
My bonsai-maples have been in full sun with no shade-protection at all for 2 years, without a single sunburn issue.
Even through last years once-in-a-lifetime heat wave (full sun everyday and around 30 degrees C for about 3 months straight).
My garden-maples haven't had any sunburn issues during the 12 years I've lived in this house either.
Maybe I've just been lucky?
Or maybe maples can in fact cope very well with full sun in the more northern regions of Europe, including the UK?
Strong winds however, do cause some leaf damage if I'm not careful.
I am very diligent about the soil condition and with the watering though.
(I train many different types of trees as bonsai. The only species so far that have gotten a slight sunburn are Dawn Redwoods).
I'm in Norway, we have the sun up for longer in summer than most countries anywhere in the world.
In June it doesn't get dark at all here, just a slight dusk for a few hours before the sun comes back up again.
My bonsai-maples have been in full sun with no shade-protection at all for 2 years, without a single sunburn issue.
Even through last years once-in-a-lifetime heat wave (full sun everyday and around 30 degrees C for about 3 months straight).
My garden-maples haven't had any sunburn issues during the 12 years I've lived in this house either.
Maybe I've just been lucky?
Or maybe maples can in fact cope very well with full sun in the more northern regions of Europe, including the UK?
Strong winds however, do cause some leaf damage if I'm not careful.
I am very diligent about the soil condition and with the watering though.
(I train many different types of trees as bonsai. The only species so far that have gotten a slight sunburn are Dawn Redwoods).
I agree with this quote Conor, its hard not too if you are really keen on getting this tree healthy and growing strong but I have not seen this tree of yours healthy for any sustained amount of time since you purchased it.
I also agree with Paul here, I live in London and I have maples in full direct sun from 9am in the morning till sun set. I have other smaller ones that get full sun from sun rise till around 2pm. All of which have healthy leaves like Pauls. Even on our hottest day on record the other week no harm was done as I kept the water up on them with a timer while I was at work. I don't see any need for shade cloth in our climate (but then again I use a different mix to you). Like Paul said its all about your micro climate, how you water and substrate. If you want to continue using (I'm guessing) Tescos Cat litter/sanicat pink and pine bark then you will have to learn how to water it without it drying out/staying too wet. No one on here can give you the answer to that you have to find that out for yourself. Stick your finger in to soil, look at the growing tips, the surface colour of the soil, look/feel under the pot. observe and learn whats best for its particular situation and change something if its not working.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
Thanks Drew, sometimes it feels like you're just a whisper in a thunderstorm
it took me years messing around with mixes, shuffling trees around in the garden and constructing a trellis / bamboo windscreen for my trees to jump into high gear.
I tried the 'keep maples in shade' experiment behind my garage maybe, woah, over 20 years ago and it created more problems than it solved: big leaves, less vigorous response after pruning, bigger internodes, and finally powdery mildew.
I hope you consider doing an update on your maples soon too - I enjoy your work.
Funny you should say that I think I actually prefer growing JBPs but because maples grow so well they seem to have taken over my garden HA!
Paulpash
Masterpiece
Mine too lol. I think I have 3 more maple layers this year and a full tray of Arakawa + Deshojo cuttings have taken as well. I've not counted but upwards of twenty maples.
Funny that me too! I've had three Arakawa cuttings root but I'm still waiting on the Deshojo's. Also got some Deshojo airlayers I re-cut last night!
Paulpash
Masterpiece
About 6-8 weeks. No bottom heat. Seed tray & clear propagation lid to keep up humidity. PAL mix 1:1:1. Sprayed with hydrogen peroxide twice a week during the early stages. Just dappled shade while they pushed leaves. They are now fully exposed to the elements. Arakawa is one of the most sun tolerant Acers for bonsai but the Deshojos are in back and get shade. They have always rooted after Arakawa and aren't as vigorous.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Maples show clearly when they are affected by too much light intensity in a particular location. Simply observing the protective color changes that occur to protect the chlorophyll in the leaves. One does need to know the normal characteristics of the cultivars in question.Thanks Drew, sometimes it feels like you're just a whisper in a thunderstorm
it took me years messing around with mixes, shuffling trees around in the garden and constructing a trellis / bamboo windscreen for my trees to jump into high gear.
I tried the 'keep maples in shade' experiment behind my garage maybe, woah, over 20 years ago and it created more problems than it solved: big leaves, less vigorous response after pruning, bigger internodes, and finally powdery mildew.
A simple change to a shadier location will then return the leaves to normal. I added a shade cloth to one area of my nursery housing many Japanese maples and within one week the leaves were responding and normal chlorophyll levels were returning. ( no other variables were changed)
So, one can determine what works best in their location for maples regardless of what another's opinion might be!
Size of Leaf, length of internode, etc are mostly affected by moisture levels, nutrient levels, general vigor of the plant. Being in the shade does not necessarily create mold or disease issues. The major factors are air movement and moisture retention in the substrate.
I agree with the overall concept that each person needs to find out the winning combination for their climate, chosen substrate and daily care regime. Healthy trees are evidence enough!
Fair enough. Thanks for the continued responses.
It would certainly seem you are more so on the correct theory @Paulpash .
What substrate do you use @Ingvill ?
Maple has been in that pot coming up to 3 years now. It’s a long time where any number of things may have happened in the roots, so next year barerooting and change of substrate will hopefully yield results.
Watering, @Drew thats my technique, colour, finger in the substrate, I did like to think I was quite good at measuring moisture needs, by now, with that method.
However perhaps I am but simply I believe incorrectly in that it needs watering more, or less, than I think.
What’s your substrate recommendation? Inorganics, particule size?
It would certainly seem you are more so on the correct theory @Paulpash .
What substrate do you use @Ingvill ?
Maple has been in that pot coming up to 3 years now. It’s a long time where any number of things may have happened in the roots, so next year barerooting and change of substrate will hopefully yield results.
Watering, @Drew thats my technique, colour, finger in the substrate, I did like to think I was quite good at measuring moisture needs, by now, with that method.
However perhaps I am but simply I believe incorrectly in that it needs watering more, or less, than I think.
What’s your substrate recommendation? Inorganics, particule size?
Conor, with the components, particle sizes and pot shape you are using, you may well find that the top layer of the pot dries out when there's still a lot of water being held in the bottom. Using a more consistent particle size (not the fine grained stuff in a pot that size) may help you in future.
