Acer palmatum beni chidori (from cutting)

[clem]

I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell the difference between what's grafted and what's not. The roots will all appear pretty much identical. So not really necessary to use beni-chidori cuttings for root grafts. Save those to make more future bonsai. In the case of arakawa, a very different story as @Paulpash mentioned. You must use arakawa cuttings (or air layers) as the roots will develop rough bark in years to come and be able to match the rest of the tree.

Thank you for your post Sergio. I may be strange/picky but if prefer to have the exact same cultivar roots since it is easy for me to buy those "beni chidori" cuttings : the nursery owner send them by post after having recieved my payment. The only concern for me is to have a thin cutting and if i will succed in my thread graft ^^

Is it easy to make thread graft of roots as proposed by Leatherback ? i mean : drill the trunk and pass inside the hole a root of the same tree ?

 

[MACH5]

Thank you for your post Sergio. I may be strange/picky but if prefer to have the exact same cultivar roots since it is easy for me to buy those "beni chidori" cuttings : the nursery owner send them by post after having recieved my payment. The only concern for me is to have a thin cutting and if i will succed in my thread graft ^^

Is it easy to make thread graft of roots as proposed by Leatherback ? i mean : drill the trunk and pass inside the hole a root of the same tree ?

Sure, certainly nothing wrong with that!

I usually have done approach grafts but thread grafting is not hard and may actually increase your chances of success. Approach grafting can be a little tricky.

 

[0soyoung]

I usually have done approach grafts but thread grafting is not hard and may actually increase your chances of success. Approach grafting can be a little tricky.

I use the withering or absence of thickening of the thread on the in-going side to tell when a thread graft has likely succeeded. In other words, the tread being much thicker on the out-going side than the in-going is a condition to be met before severing the thread.

The reliability of this metric suggests to me that thread grafting is ill-suited (has a high probability of failure) for root grafts. As troublesome as approach grafting is, I think it will give the greater chances of success in root grafting.

 

[MACH5]

I use the withering or absence of thickening of the thread on the in-going side to tell when a thread graft has likely succeeded. In other words, the tread being much thicker on the out-going side than the in-going is a condition to be met before severing the thread.

The reliability of this metric suggests to me that thread grafting is ill-suited (has a high probability of failure) for root grafts. As troublesome as approach grafting is, I think it will give the greater chances of success in root grafting.

Oso, I beg to differ. In fact I would even say it is much easier to tell when the graft union has fused on a thread graft than when doing an approach. Thread grafting is in my experience almost full proof particularly with Japanese maples. Now, whether the end result looks natural or not that's a different question and will depend heavily on how it's executed.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

The reliability of this metric suggests to me that thread grafting is ill-suited (has a high probability of failure) for root grafts

This reasoning still makes perfect sense to me and this is exactly what i thought for a while, untill i started using thread grafts for root grafts, and it worked perfectly every time

When appropriate, i like to insert 2 branches through the same hole in opposite directions, which adds roots on opposite sides from eachother on the circumference of the trunk, and also hides any scars!

i also use root grafts to correct one-sided airlayers prior to separation! For example i had a few deshojo air layers this summer that only had roots on 75% of the cicumference, so i root grafted (via thread graft) to fill that 25% gap and then re-sealed the airlayer for a few more months prior to separation. Of course, you can always add root grafts after separation of the airlayer, but in this case i was going to re-seal the airlayer anyways because the roots that the airlayer produced needed more time to develop prior to separation.

Next summer i will be trying to produce ‘false air layers’ by root grafting (via thread graft) all around the circumference of a trunk to get a head start on an extremely flared ebihara-style base on a tiny shohin maple design. @MACH5 beat me to the ebihara branch displacement, so i needed to get creative

 

[TN_Jim]

This thread is legit content & thanks.

@Canada Bonsai ...can you elaborate on this, two branches through in opposite directions technique? I’m confused, any images?

 

[Canada Bonsai]

@Canada Bonsai ...can you elaborate on this, two branches through in opposite directions technique? I’m confused, any images?

Sure! Sorry I don't draw well, but I tried to sketch something fo you quickly with my sunday morning coffee

First attachment - 'Double Thread' Grafts
Top 2 pictures: the concept
Bottom 2 pictures: examples for application

Top left: 'single thread' (standard approach)
Top Right: 'double thread' (my teacher's approach, when appropriate for the situation)

Bottom left: adding 2 branches via thread graft, with each branch concealing the entry point of the other thread graft
Bottom right: adding sets of 2 roots via thread graft, with each set of roots concealing the exit point of the other thread graft

Second attachment - 'False Air Layers'
This 'double thread' technique is what I have been playing with for 'false air layers' (with 3 holes you add 6 set of roots, etc). I have succeeded a few with Acer Palmatum where I was testing the functionality with no real concern for aesthetics. I am now in the process of experimenting with the aesthetics. I hope to be able to share a full report in 2022.

In this sketch I am trying to illustrate the core concept. It should be enough to get your brain going, but the execution can get quite sophisticated in difference scenarios and for different purposes. The obvious improvement would be with the placement/angle of the holes being drilled. Other areas for improvement are less obvious and require more creativity. It may help to speak with an electrician about 'fishing' techniques

The number of holes will vary, but in this example with 9 holes you get 18 sets of roots.

I want to be very clear here: I brought this up because it is an example of the success of root grafts via thread grafting. I don't recommend 'false air layers' as a go-to solution or replacement for standard air layers. It requires a lot of unnecessary thinking and precision in execution, and the number of holes being drilled through a trunk in such close proximity can be risky and does damage to the tree (although i luckily have seen no consequence of this damage as of yet). I'm doing this entirely for fun.

 

[clem]

Thanks for those interesting drawings.
The inconvenient i see on the "double thread grafts", apart from the fact that the hole must be bigger, is that you need to have 2 thin cuttings in order to change their direction towards the soil (for a root) or towards the sky (for a branch) because you need to drill an horizontale hole. When you thread graf just one cutting, you can drill a hole diagonally to have a more natural orientation of the root & the branch .. so you can thread graft bigger cutting with a diagonal hole imo ->

 

[Canada Bonsai]

you need to drill an horizontale hole. When you thread graf just one cutting, you can drill a hole diagonally to have a more natural orientation of the root & the branch

I understand the point that you're making, but horizontal drill-holes are never an issue. In the sketch i attached here, the nebari progresses from nothing, to orange, to red. This is the case whether you are working with the roots of a graft, a cutting, an air layer, a seedling, or roots that naturally emerge over time.

In other words, horizontal drill-holes are not an issue for 2 reasons:

1 - As your trunk and roots thicken, over time the nebari will gradually develop a flared shape. This development process occurs in the exact same way regardless of how your roots appeared where they are.

2 - The roots that you're grafting should be no less flexible than any other roots in any other scenario, meaning that with thread grafts you will have at least as much control as you always have over the angle of the roots and the consequent shape of the nebari.

When working with cuttings or air layers, many people actually go out of their way to produce horizontal roots as early as possible in the tree's development. The situation is no different with thread grafts.

 

[TN_Jim]

Sure! Sorry I don't draw well, but I tried to sketch something fo you quickly with my sunday morning coffee

First attachment - 'Double Thread' Grafts
Top 2 pictures: the concept
Bottom 2 pictures: examples for application

Top left: 'single thread' (standard approach)
Top Right: 'double thread' (my teacher's approach, when appropriate for the situation)

Bottom left: adding 2 branches via thread graft, with each branch concealing the entry point of the other thread graft
Bottom right: adding sets of 2 roots via thread graft, with each set of roots concealing the exit point of the other thread graft

Second attachment - 'False Air Layers'
This 'double thread' technique is what I have been playing with for 'false air layers' (with 3 holes you add 6 set of roots, etc). I have succeeded a few with Acer Palmatum where I was testing the functionality with no real concern for aesthetics. I am now in the process of experimenting with the aesthetics. I hope to be able to share a full report in 2022.

In this sketch I am trying to illustrate the core concept. It should be enough to get your brain going, but the execution can get quite sophisticated in difference scenarios and for different purposes. The obvious improvement would be with the placement/angle of the holes being drilled. Other areas for improvement are less obvious and require more creativity. It may help to speak with an electrician about 'fishing' techniques

The number of holes will vary, but in this example with 9 holes you get 18 sets of roots.

I want to be very clear here: I brought this up because it is an example of the success of root grafts via thread grafting. I don't recommend 'false air layers' as a go-to solution or replacement for standard air layers. It requires a lot of unnecessary thinking and precision in execution, and the number of holes being drilled through a trunk in such close proximity can be risky and does damage to the tree (although i luckily have seen no consequence of this damage as of yet). I'm doing this entirely for fun.

Fascinating..
Thanks!!

 

[clem]

hello, i've done my first thread grafts to creat new roots.

the rootball ->


the nebari of the front. The middle lack of root ->


the hole ->


With the young cutting of Beni Chidori inserted inside the hole, the nebari is better ->


Another hole to insert another cutting ->


The 2 cuttings inside the 2 holes ->



The rootball fixed in the woodbox ->


the repotting finished ->

I will keep the 2 cuttings in full sun to let them grow as much as possible. I cross fingers for the "thread graft" success

 

[mandrei99]

Have the grafted surived?

 

[clem]

Have the grafted surived?

they have made new shoots, but the shoots died a few days ago ... so now i have 2 cutting with no leaves.. dunno if they'll survive. If not, i'll make new grafts next spring..

 

[clem]

Some news : i cut the 2 sacrifice branches a few weeks ago (this branch was cut in the end of June) ->



This sacrifice branche was cut a week ago ->

I wired the new shoots because those shoots will probably be usefull for the future ->

I plan to cut on the red line later when the new truunk line on the right has developped. The gree line is the future thread graft of a branch on the left side of the tree ->


Here is the project (hope gives life... ) to help me with the future trunk line ->

 

[ConorDash]

Aside from the great development and great plan for this, I'm also seriously impressed by how clean that wound paste is that you applied lol.. cant just make out a finger print but its perfect.

 

[BobbyLane]

from first glance the virt almost looks like you were deciding to put a shari/hollow in the middle of the trunk lol
i was legit puzzled for a sec as i know thats not your style!

 

[clem]

Aside from the great development and great plan for this, I'm also seriously impressed by how clean that wound paste is that you applied lol.. cant just make out a finger print but its perfect.

View attachment 389897

lol indeed i see my finger prints.. Before application, i put the wound paste in the water and i crush it between my fingers until it become soft

 

[clem]

from first glance the virt almost looks like you were deciding to put a shari/hollow in the middle of the trunk lol
i was legit puzzled for a sec as i know thats not your style!

it"s just the original trunk to know where to go... Not my plan for this tree but a hollow in a deciduous trunk could be cool ^^ i hope the nebari will be nice on the front

 

[Oerc201]

those very good trees come from " LES PEPINIERES BOTANIQUES ARMORICAINES" in Saint Roch 22390 Saint Adrien (France)

This nursery has no internet page, and the owner sell his trees to anybody (Bonsai enthusiasts are maybe 10% of his clients).
I took pics in this page (no need to understand french to look at it ^^) ->

Forum - LE BONSAI BRIC A BRAC - Ppinires Botaniques Armoricaines : visite et boutures sur palmatum

The cuttings (and the owner of the nursery) ->
View attachment 290866


View attachment 290862

The cuttings after 2 years ->
View attachment 290864



The palmatum trees ready to be sold (after 4 years of growth in the ground : in a secret place that no of his clients know) ->
View attachment 290865

How much did that benichidori cost there?

 

[clem]

How much did that benichidori cost there?

i don't remember if it is 35 or 45€ each.. so let's say : 40€ approx.
1 year old young cutting cost 15€