About yamadori. And other Japanese terms tossed around here

[Timbo]

Bonesigh

or bon-zy???

 

[Ironbeaver]

It's odd how we North Americans use some Japanese terms yet don't use all, even many of them. Nebari, yamadori, jin, shari, yet no one seems to use Japanese style names much (kengai etc.) What's the Japanese term for ramification? Repotting? Wiring?

Jin and shari are faster and more convenient and descriptive than deadwood branch or trunk scar. Yamadori conjures a different "feel" than collected from the wild/tree from nature/ancient gnarly tree.

That being said, I think we're stuck with an Americanized, less than true definition for the word.

 

[Adair M]

View attachment 167564 This is also a sub alpine fir collected in October 2017. Older than the one i collected this spring. Should be ready for styling in 1-2 years.

Interesting trees. How old do you estimate them to be? Do they develop a rough bark?

 

[M. Frary]

Bonseye!

Brown eye?

 

[River's Edge]

Hi Adair
The bark does not get very rough characteristics. I am not great at estimating age of collected trees. Given the location and elevation, likely well over 100 years. Very short growing season. The more upright tree base is over 8 inches. the larger trunk in the triple is over 5inches. Both trees are currently approx 38 inches in height.

 

[Timbo]

A Reciprocating saw could give you a rough estimate.
Yes...i just said that...
I'm joking.

 

[River's Edge]

A Reciprocating saw could give you a rough estimate.
Yes...i just said that...
I'm joking.

You forgot the magnifying glass!

 

[Timbo]

Oh, sorry...had tunnel vision.

 

[rockm]

So @M. Frary , you use the Japanese word bonsai, but how do you pronounce it, hmm???

And

Didn't you beat me up a bit for not really caring how the word Bonsai is pronounced??
Interesting to see your viewpoint on this one...

I did. I do not promote mispronouncing any of the words used. Saying BANzai makes you look kinda silly to people who do BONsai--which is the term that has been adopted in the West for BONSAI. A silly difference, but difference nonetheless.

 

[Adair M]

Hi Adair
The bark does not get very rough characteristics. I am not great at estimating age of collected trees. Given the location and elevation, likely well over 100 years. Very short growing season. The more upright tree base is over 8 inches. the larger trunk in the triple is over 5inches. Both trees are currently approx 38 inches in height.

I did a bit of research on google, and found they do produce a mature bark “with age”. There was no indication of how old the tree must be to develop rough and/or plated bark. The oldest have been found to be about 500 years old. The articles I read stated that most of the ones in western Canada only live to 120 to 140 years, they succumb to some kind of fungus.

 

[Arcto]

Adair is correct. True Fir will bark up. It does seem to happen at an older age than other conifers. Here is an old growth White Fir next to an old growth Ponderosa. The Fir is on the left.

Base of a Yamadori White Fir. This one is just starting to show the barking up starting. Unusual in a tree of this size and age. I haven't seen this in collected Subalpine Firs yet, even older ones. I'm sure they're out there there though.

 

[River's Edge]

The regular fir on my acreage show mature bark at earlier ages as you both suggest. The Sub Alpine Fir that i have seen collecting are growing in sites that promote very stunted growth. Shallow rock pockets with limited substrate and very short growing seasons. Heavy snowpack.
I am not surprised that there lifespan is more limited. I am looking forward to seeing how they develop and respond. Many people have ignored the sub alpine fir simply because the bark does not appear as mature. That may very well be because they take longer to develop the mature bark or as Adair mentioned they don't live as long. For those who like mature bark, here is a collected shore pine

 

[Timbo]

I Like them young and smooth, not so much when they get old and fat....I'm talking about trees! You guys stop!
I dunno what the right 'term' is for that.

 

[River's Edge]

I did a bit of research on google, and found they do produce a mature bark “with age”. There was no indication of how old the tree must be to develop rough and/or plated bark. The oldest have been found to be about 500 years old. The articles I read stated that most of the ones in western Canada only live to 120 to 140 years, they succumb to some kind of fungus.

The silviculture site, (BC Forestry)also notes that the growth rate and longevity changes dramatically at higher elevations in British Columbia. The growth rate is significantly less and the overall height. Although the tree commonly reaches in excess of 30 metres in lower elevations the higher elevation trees reach less than 10 metres. After these two specimens are ready to work on i will remove one of the larger replacement top pieces and see if i can count the rings in relation to the diameter. That might give me more insight into the particular location and growth rates on that site.

 

[Vance Wood]

It's odd how we North Americans use some Japanese terms yet don't use all, even many of them. Nebari, yamadori, jin, shari, yet no one seems to use Japanese style names much (kengai etc.) What's the Japanese term for ramification? Repotting? Wiring?

Jin and shari are faster and more convenient and descriptive than deadwood branch or trunk scar. Yamadori conjures a different "feel" than collected from the wild/tree from nature/ancient gnarly tree.

That being said, I think we're stuck with an Americanized, less than true definition for the word.

I think many of the Japanese terms we seek to use/emulate and came into existence, not to humiliate the Western minds, but to provide terminology for things that were more bonsai specific. The goad to described things more elegantly than crumby crumpled trunk, torn up piece of dead-wood, something to poke you in the eye with, or the area where the tree enters the ground, not to mention a lot of bleached old dead wood.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Yamadori = mountain tree
It's slang for collected trees in Japan too but a "true" Yamadori is a tree with almost man~made dimensions and finding those on the nountain are nigh on impossible unless you climb cliffs.....
Which is why they are expensive ......
But best not to split hairs as I have seen so called urbandori that look much more interesting than actual yamadori.....

 

[Kendo]

Not so good collecting the Yamadori. Hai More than wild tree is meaning. Hai Sensei he knock me some with his shoe some one day. Hai He saying that I steal if taking Yamadori for bonsai. Hai Patience is how you are doing while wait. Hai This is the bonsai. Hai Yamadori is for Bonsai student without patience. Hai If Yamadori is still right in there than many can visit and meditate on past. Hai

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Not so good collecting the Yamadori. Hai More than wild tree is meaning. Hai Sensei he knock me some with his shoe some one day. Hai He saying that I steal if taking Yamadori for bonsai. Hai Patience is how you are doing while wait. Hai This is the bonsai. Hai Yamadori is for Bonsai student without patience. Hai If Yamadori is still right in there than many can visit and meditate on past. Hai

True...... but I am not going to be doing any meditating on a 2 foot wide rock shelf with a 1000 foot drop behind me........

 

[Potawatomi13]

I think “yamadori” means something like “from the mountain”

One Hundred % accurate and should not be corrupted as is something special in Bonsai world.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Even in wild areas, the unintentional hand of man can create some interesting material. An ethical question. If I styled these and entered them in a prestigious show with the goal of winning prizes and acclaim. Or I put them up for sale at prices comparable to true Yamadori people have hiked to and collected from rock pockets. Could I call these true wild Yamadori?

After thought: Personally would say likely yes. Reason because grew in wild and not intentionally "trained" by mans hand.