The best advice from bonsai masters youve gotten

[wrcmad]

Have you posted any pictures of them here?

Yeah... was goaded into a pissing contest on here once in an unrelated thread....
Here is the LINK

 

[Smoke]

Skip working with seedlings or seeds if you want to do actual bonsai.

Bonsai are NOT grown up. They are cut down.

Little bonsai don't become big bonsai.

100% disagree.
Bonsai are grown, topiary is cut down.
After 30+ years, my collection now consists entirely of trees I have propagated and grown myself from seed or cutting.
All trees I had previously developed from nursery stock have been moved on due to inferior quality.

Yeah... was goaded into a pissing contest on here once in an unrelated thread....
Here is the LINK

So your offering a picture of a nice elm that has obviously been cut down as an argument against cutting trees down? There is a big scar in the middle of the tree where the trunk mysteriously turns right.

 

[Smoke]

Not only that the trunk on the chop side is dead to the tree now and the live vein is on the right after the new leader kept growing. The division in the trunk will become more prominent over the years as that left branch is the only thing keeping that side alive.

 

[wrcmad]

So your offering a picture of a nice elm that has obviously been cut down as an argument against cutting trees down? There is a big scar in the middle of the tree where the trunk mysteriously turns right

Yep.
Actually, my opinion was more in disagreement with this comment: "... Skip working with seedlings or seeds if you want to do actual bonsai."
But you can play semantics-police all day long... please yourself.
I stand by my opinion that growing your own trees results in better quality.

 

[wrcmad]

Not only that the trunk on the chop side is dead to the tree now and the live vein is on the right after the new leader kept growing. The division in the trunk will become more prominent over the years as that left branch is the only thing keeping that side alive.

100% disagree. Total load of BS.
Why don't you come visit and take a look at the tree yourself?
Not sure why you have honed in on me?..... guessing it's a gun thing?

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Maybe before you say that you should look at the maples post from last week or so and look at all the wonderful trees Bill posted. I think everyone of them shows the scars of the chops, in numerous places. I would never say Bill doesn't have any maples that have never been chopped, but as far as the ones he's posted here, they are all chopped.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/are-great-maples-chopped-come-share-your-thoughts.36215/page-3

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/share-your-deciduous-winter-silhouettes.36357/page-2#post-611892

Smoke, don’t oversimplify, you know better. Doesn’t do you any justice to play naive. We all know that trunk chops are a routine practice for developing deciduous trunks, whether that chop was made on a tree that was grown from seed or cutting or on a tree that you bought from someone else that grew that tree from seed or cutting.

Don’t be thick for arguments sake. Dennis’s Maple has a chop, he still grew it from seedling though. My statement was in response to rockm’s post that people shouldn’t bother with seedlings if they want to do “actual bonsai”. I’m well aware that developing a tree requires both growing and pruning whether it’s from seedling you started or you bought it as pre bonsai.

 

[Adair M]

And therein probably lies the explanation of why [sic] my trees suck and yours don't.
The instant you say 'because', you're in deep dodo.

I've never made it beyond being 3 years old, I guess. I'm preoccupied by 'why'.

You show me how and I ask, why does that work?

Lol!!!

When Peter Tea was doing his apprenticeship in Japan, he was told to fertilize the trees. If my memory serves, it was cottonseed meal. Anyway, Peter asked the Master what was the formula? He meant, what was the NPK. He was told “COTTON SEED MEAL!” Peter persisted, with , “How much Nitrogen? Phosphorous? Potassium? “

At which point Mr. Tanaka was exasperated, “It doesn’t matter!!! It works! Trees grow!!! Now get out there and fertilize!!!” Lol!!!

 

[Csmdad]

Too new to tell the really good advice from the not-so-really-good... but this one spoke to me.

 

[Adair M]

View attachment 222147
Too new to tell the really good advice from the not-so-really-good... but this one spoke to me.

That one is up there with Mr. Miaji: “Daniel-san, think tree. Cut away the parts that don’t look like tree.”

There ya go! All the advice you ever need! Lol!!!

 

[rockm]

Smoke, don’t oversimplify, you know better. Doesn’t do you any justice to play naive. We all know that trunk chops are a routine practice for developing deciduous trunks, whether that chop was made on a tree that was grown from seed or cutting or on a tree that you bought from someone else that grew that tree from seed or cutting.

Don’t be thick for arguments sake. Dennis’s Maple has a chop, he still grew it from seedling though. My statement was in response to rockm’s post that people shouldn’t bother with seedlings if they want to do “actual bonsai”. I’m well aware that developing a tree requires both growing and pruning whether it’s from seedling you started or you bought it as pre bonsai.

still stand by the statement that fooling around with seedlings is not a great way to develop bonsai skills. The thought that seedlings will teach you bonsai skills is backward. The opposite is true. Working with more mature bonsai will inform your capabilities in growing out seedlings for bonsai use...

 

[Csmdad]

That one is up there with Mr. Miaji: “Daniel-san, think tree. Cut away the parts that don’t look like tree.”

There ya go! All the advice you ever need! Lol!!!

Then it's as easy as carving a duck from a block of wood. You just cut off all the parts that don't look like a duck.

 

[coh]

That one is up there with Mr. Miaji: “Daniel-san, think tree. Cut away the parts that don’t look like tree.”

There ya go! All the advice you ever need! Lol!!!

It's all really simple when you get right down to it!

 

[Smoke]

Then it's as easy as carving a duck from a block of wood. You just cut off all the parts that don't look like a duck.

That’s how I build stands. I just cut away the portions that don’t look like a stand.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

still stand by the statement that fooling around with seedlings is not a great way to develop bonsai skills. The thought that seedlings will teach you bonsai skills is backward. The opposite is true. Working with more mature bonsai will inform your capabilities in growing out seedlings for bonsai use...

I agree with you there, I work with both. Sorry if it came off like I was attacking the idea of working with more mature material. I wasn’t, I was only defending the merits of working with seedlings as well.

I collected somewhere between one hundred and two hundred (still haven’t counted) crabapple seeds last fall and started them this spring. From this batch of seedlings I identified three new unique dwarf varieties. Two are ultra dwarfs and could make make for some seriously interesting crabapple mame of small shohin sized trees. Hopefully I can keep them alive long enough to propagate them and develop some into bonsai.

Here’s the thread I started on them: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-new-dwarf-crabapple-cultivars.34702/

To me this aspect of bonsai is just as exciting as refining a tree, and we can thank a lot of Japanese people playing with seedlings for all of the unique maple varieties that we use for bonsai today. It’s just another side of the art to explore, and since I’m 31 I feel like I have the time to play with seedlings.

 

[Smoke]

Yep.
Actually, my opinion was more in disagreement with this comment: "... Skip working with seedlings or seeds if you want to do actual bonsai."
But you can play semantics-police all day long... please yourself.
I stand by my opinion that growing your own trees results in better quality.

Smoke, don’t oversimplify, you know better. Doesn’t do you any justice to play naive. We all know that trunk chops are a routine practice for developing deciduous trunks, whether that chop was made on a tree that was grown from seed or cutting or on a tree that you bought from someone else that grew that tree from seed or cutting.

Don’t be thick for arguments sake. Dennis’s Maple has a chop, he still grew it from seedling though. My statement was in response to rockm’s post that people shouldn’t bother with seedlings if they want to do “actual bonsai”. I’m well aware that developing a tree requires both growing and pruning whether it’s from seedling you started or you bought it as pre bonsai.

You guys are debating me rather than the words. That’s why I put all the quote sequence in the post. If there is clarification needed, which there was/is. He did say “bonsai are grown up, topiary are cut down”. So his disagreement did hold water. You guys say the words I just hold you to them. That is not liked a lot, truth hurts.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

You guys are debating me rather than the words. That’s why I put all the quote sequence in the post. If there is clarification needed, which there was/is. He did say “bonsai are grown up, topiary are cut down”. So his disagreement did hold water. You guys say the words I just hold you to them. That is not liked a lot, truth hurts.

Ok, but all I was saying was there are merits to growing from seedling, I wasn’t saying there was no chopping involved. That’s all.

 

[rockm]

I agree with you there, I work with both. Sorry if it came off like I was attacking the idea of working with more mature material. I wasn’t, I was only defending the merits of working with seedlings as well.

I collected somewhere between one hundred and two hundred (still haven’t counted) crabapple seeds last fall and started them this spring. From this batch of seedlings I identified three new unique dwarf varieties. Two are ultra dwarfs and could make make for some seriously interesting crabapple mame of small shohin sized trees. Hopefully I can keep them alive long enough to propagate them and develop some into bonsai.

Here’s the thread I started on them: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-new-dwarf-crabapple-cultivars.34702/

To me this aspect of bonsai is just as exciting as refining a tree, and we can thank a lot of Japanese people playing with seedlings for all of the unique maple varieties that we use for bonsai today. It’s just another side of the art to explore, and since I’m 31 I feel like I have the time to play with seedlings.

Actually all those JM maple cultivars were developed mostly with cuttings, not seeds. Those mutations only were noticed as seedlings with unusual characteristics sprouted from one seed. Those seedlings with those unusual characteristics were grown on to larger sizes then grafted onto common saplings. The unusual characteristics of the parent tree don't reliably transfer to seeds

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Actually all those JM maple cultivars were developed mostly with cuttings, not seeds. Those mutations only were noticed as seedlings with unusual characteristics sprouted from one seed. Those seedlings with those unusual characteristics were grown on to larger sizes then grafted onto common saplings. The unusual characteristics of the parent tree don't reliably transfer to seeds

... I’m aware of how cultivar propagation works. I don’t what you’re trying to tell me to be honest. I think your misreading something. Sounds like you’re agreeing with me that yes, new cultivars are found/develop from seedlings. Unless it’s a witch’s broom. I know they’re propagated by cutting from the original seedling.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Those mutations only were noticed as seedlings with unusual characteristics sprouted from one seed.

Literally what I said. If you click on my dwarf crab thread you will see unique seedlings that I started, that I plan to propagate with cutting or grafting.

 

[Smoke]

Ok, but all I was saying was there are merits to growing from seedling, I wasn’t saying there was no chopping involved. That’s all.

Your debate means nothing to most people doing bonsai today. Bill has been doing bonsai for half a century. He has some trees from fifty years ago that he started. That is all. Doesn’t make them better or worse. Just means he knows the pedigree. My whole collection was started from seeds, cuttings or layers. What’s your point? How many of those plants started fifty years ago are still in his collection that didn’t fit his ideal. If your trying to tell me that growing out material for your self is superior to purchasing something far superior than you can grow... I’ll let the forum debate that. You already know I don’t agree with that.