Difficulty level of pines...

[Cadillactaste]

I've been told pines can be difficult. You either have success or you don't. Do ones find this to be true?
(White and Black pine)

 

[Nybonsai12]

Get a pine Darlene!

I've killed more pines than any other kind of tree. I've found them to be less forgiving than other species. By the time you realize you have a problem it's often too late. Most of the ones I've killed it's due to my own inexperience(worked roots too hard, lack of proper winter protection, overwatering and staying too wet).

But I don't think it's as simple as you are either successful or you are not. I think they have a longer period to understand and get the hang of,or at least that's what I keep telling myself! I have not had what I would consider success with pines, although I haven't had that many, nor have I been at bonsai very long. I have kept a couple alive for the last few seasons and gotten through some basic work with them, but I'm still a long way from what I would call success. In my opinion if you want to become good at something, it's going to take time, practice and some failures. So you have to jump into it, read all you can and have a good support system to bounce questions off of(like the fine folks here at Bnut and/or a club.) I'd likely doubt anyone who says they had immediate success on their own.

A great place to get pines to learn on are from Muranaka, if you aren't local to pick up in person , they only sell on eBay. For around $100-150 you can get a decent JBP to practice and learn on. It's a great starting point.

 

[aml1014]

I think it's down to experience as said above, I've killed probably 6 Mugo's and their supposed to be forgiving but here I am with pinion (edulis), single needle pinion, ponderosa, black pine, and a korean white pine that I have yet to kill and must say they look pretty healthy. I think pine are just touchy and since I got my job at a local nursery I've learned how to watch what they want and don't want and to compensate.

 

[Paradox]

I agree with NY and aml, the only way to learn is to work with them. You arent going to learn if you avoid them.

I have kept a scots pine and a couple of mugos alive for 4 years. I am into my third year with 2 JBP.

I would say they are well worth the effort. Just make sure you get one that you can grow in your area. JBP might be too cold in the winter, but they do fine in Massachusettes so you might be ok with them. I dont remember if she has any but if Judy can grow them you can too.

If you can grow them, I would recommend JBP; if not then mugo. I would stay away from JWP for now they just seem to be on a different level than JBP, mugo.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I was looking into a literati style...So, something with bones. The man has both black and white pine. That could fit the bill...but am undecided as to if I will kill it or not. I have a cold greenhouse. So wintering isn't an issue. Since I'll keep a close eye on temps and it won't get to cold...but still stay dormant.

I'm really wanting to be selective on my trees. So bones matter...I understand its important to know the care of a tree. But, I don't want to have to deal with tons of young stock. Which will add into the bottom total of trees I have set in my minds eye.

 

[aml1014]

I was looking into a literati style...So, something with bones. The man has both black and white pine. That could fit the bill...but am undecided as to if I will kill it or not. I have a cold greenhouse. So wintering isn't an issue. Since I'll keep a close eye on temps and it won't get to cold...but still stay dormant.

I'm really wanting to be selective on my trees. So bones matter...I understand its important to know the care of a tree. But, I don't want to have to deal with tons of young stock. Which will add into the bottom total of trees I have set in my minds eye.

If you want one but are unsure if you can care for it or not maybe a youngin or two wouldn't hurt to see if you can keep them alive and if so then get what you want and plant the others in the landscape if you still don't want young trees.

 

[sorce]

I'm pretty psyched about watching this Mugo thrive.

Nervous of winter because of the nursery soil, but it feels good to know it's not a curse!

I think it's about a long term, well thought out, and highly flexible plan.
Flexible as in, go slower when thriving is compromised.

Start with one insult every 2 years, without letting stuff get away.

Most important....IMO.
Soil you are used to, and a well potted established plant. $$$

I can't do it till I get a yard, but when I do.....

Go for it! I say you follow up on this thread and pull the trigger come spring!

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I was looking into a literati style...So, something with bones. The man has both black and white pine. That could fit the bill...but am undecided as to if I will kill it or not.

You will probably kill it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Here are a few pines I've killed.

First JBP attempt, purchased as nursery stock at MABA in Chicago around 1996. Pruned, wired, and killed within a year.

Second JBPattempt, around 2003. Killed by another pine tree that fell on it during a hurricane in 2004.

Corkbark JBP graft. Turned yellow and died in about 7 days. Maybe the graft failed:


Black pine, wired styled, under potted, and dead:

Virginia pine, collected in 2007. Overpotted. Dead:

Ponderosa pine, collected in 2010, wired and styled with Bjorn in 2013. Dead from moving the tree around too much after potting:

 

[justBonsai]

Though I don't have much experience I would say be sure to get a pine suited to your climate. I always saw my local bonsai nursery selling Japanese white pines so I assumed that they would do well in my local climate. My jwp is alive and well after a late repotting from being quite rootbound but it definitely seems to lack a level of vigor apparent on some of my other trees. In the next year or so I may consider selling or trading it for a black pine that can handle my hot summers better.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

A couple more?
Japanese red Pine. Root rot (Brussels soil):

Mugo...probably jerked out of the field and DOA:

Home Depot JBP...junk:

Japanese White Pine. Painful. Roots froze, top exposed to sun and desiccated.

Japanese Red Pine. Root rot or root aphids, never figured it out. One of my favorite all time trees:

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Common theme? It's always the soil. Sometimes it's out of season work, but always the soil. You'll never be good without first being bad. It took me about 3 years of committed study to "get it" with pines.

Black pines are easier because you can see the results of your actions. White pines are slow. Red pines are brittle. Mugos might work for you, but Vance's prescription for Mugos is different than what I do with my pines. Pick someone whose trees you admire and stick with that one person's advice, or you will be forever confused by pines.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Thanks for your food for thought...I won't loosen the purse strings so readily to one I may kill. Just wanting a literati conifer...but, pine do scare me...but he only had JBP or JWP in that style to choose from. I asked to research prior to photos. No sense wasting his time taking photos if I'm on the ledge of doubt.

 

[Adair M]

Brian's right about the soil!

Literati... There's good literati, and bad literati.

With literati, less is more. I think keeping a good literati healthy requires more attention than a big fat sumo style.

Try one of George Muranakas on enable sould be perfect.

 

[Shay]

Common theme? It's always the soil. Sometimes it's out of season work, but always the soil. You'll never be good without first being bad. It took me about 3 years of committed study to "get it" with pines.

Black pines are easier because you can see the results of your actions. White pines are slow. Red pines are brittle. Mugos might work for you, but Vance's prescription for Mugos is different than what I do with my pines. Pick someone whose trees you admire and stick with that one person's advice, or you will be forever confused by pines.

Thanks for the input...
Can you give your soil recepie please?
I grow aleppo pine which are common here and can be trained to bonsai with good result. Started growing JBP from seed and use tuff and perlite, ruflly 60% 40% with no organic and so far they look good. I have no access to akadama here.
Any sugesstions?
Thanks,
Shay

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

I started a pine 3 years after i started bonsai. The difficulty is that you only see something is going wrong when it is to late. Just do things right and you will have no problem. Good soil, right technique on right moments. I do not have the impression they are harder to keep.

 

[Anthony]

Darlene,

try J.B.pine seeds, and just let them grow for a few years. Dallas Bonsai and Bonsai boy of Brooklyn used to carry a simple Japanese sourced seed pack. About 25 to 31 seeds in the pack. No refridgeration needed, and about 20 to 25 seedlings will birth. A simple soil mix of builder's gravel at 3mm for seedlings and then onto 5 mm after 6 months. Add less than 1/3 by volume peatmoss, and just grow.

This year 28 or so from seed, no monsterpieces as of yet, but no deaths from anything other than adaptation to life.

Our climate brings on some adaptations not seen in the book, and so the learning continues.

Just try, and I am sure you will enjoy.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thanks for the input...Can you give your soil recepie please?

Soil and fert recipes are contentious topics, so I linked my recipes in my sig file and can usually leave it at that.
What I use is here:
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/digging-the-dirt-on-my-soil/

 

[JudyB]

JBP might be too cold in the winter, but they do fine in Massachusettes so you might be ok with them. I dont remember if she has any but if Judy can grow them you can too.

I have to overwinter them in the cold greenhouse keeping the temps from getting too low for too long. I keep them on the warmer side of the house as opposed to the colder side.
There is a large learning curve on these, so just get one that isn't expensive to learn on. Literati has even more challenges than the normal tree, as you're trying to pare it down to the least amount of foliage, so easier to kill. Try with a regular tree first then move toward your goal.
@Brian, that's brave of you to post all those. I feel the pain! Really...

 

[Cadillactaste]

I have to overwinter them in the cold greenhouse keeping the temps from getting too low for too long. I keep them on the warmer side of the house as opposed to the colder side.
There is a large learning curve on these, so just get one that isn't expensive to learn on. Literati has even more challenges than the normal tree, as you're trying to pare it down to the least amount of foliage, so easier to kill. Try with a regular tree first then move toward your goal.
@Brian, that's brave of you to post all those. I feel the pain! Really...

Thanks Judy...pondering your statement on literati...curious if I need to go with a deciduous tree for a literati then. Or...do as you state...learn with a less valuable tree...and then go from there. Thanks!

For now...literati is back on the back table...of only pipe dreams. I need to stack cards in my favor...and learn their needs. Though, Brian's dedication to pines...and not giving up proves it can be done...it's just reaching the point I want to take those risks to finally "get it"...

At this time...I am not sure I'm ready to take on the task. I thought I took a big step with the shimpaku. Which is a dream...I wish I knew of other conifers that stack up to the same easy skill at keeping them happy.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@Brian, that's brave of you to post all those. I feel the pain! Really...

If you wanna make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs, right?