HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Absolutely! I love it here, in general.
Share YOUR experiences/feelings when you get a minute.
Species Study - Acer Freemani
- Thread starter HorseloverFat
- Start date
Share YOUR experiences/feelings when you get a minute.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I selected a Freeman’s maple seedling last year on account of its small leaves with a stunning deep red fall leaf color. This year the leaves were large, like silver maple leaves, and their fall color is a soft yellow. The tree received more direct sunlight last year. I suspect the variation is primarily due to sun exposure, as I know that’s a factor in both leaf size and fall color.
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Could definitely be the light! Some also just COMPLETELY vary, ling to ling. year to year, Until.they "figure themselves out"
Do you have pictures of both "fall shows" on this specimen?
Gabler
Masterpiece
It’s just a stick, no branches, so like my other sticks, I haven’t bothered keeping pictures.
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Does developing trees at this 'ling" stage not interest you? People are busy, too, I get it.
Cause this is how you can MAKE sure the specimens are FIRSTLY "apt" and secondly set up for success...Some people don't care for performing many operations during. this stage.
I guess I'll answer it with this question...
Do you wire seedlings?
Gabler
Masterpiece
Do you wire seedlings?
Sometimes, but usually no. That’s for a few reasons. Firstly, I like “boring” trees. I see nothing wrong with developing some formal upright trees. Secondly, it’s easy to introduce movement by chopping a tree and growing the new leader in a different direction. I can wait to see how a tree behaves when more mature before deciding whether to develop it as a bonsai. Thirdly, I love propagating plants, and only some will become bonsai. The rest I plant in the ground to be regular trees. Hence, I‘d prefer to wait a year or two before messing with wire.
Kanorin
Omono
I noticed this also...especially in the first year or two from seed. Different sized leaves on the same plant had some different shape characteristics. I have a forest that is 3 years from seed - and I think this phenomenon is not happening quite as much this year as that first or second year. I'll try to get a good look next year.That FIRST generation behaves VERY wildly (even throws separate Red and Silver leafsets, "trying to find itself", I say.) and has a HUGE tendency for variance.. across the board. Here are SOME of the Freemani that I care for. (Some are photos of landscape stock)
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Respect for sure! No problem with trees looking like trees, OR building from hard prunes...
I, personally, develop a few steps "out"... I've found that hard "chops", at least in my care/environment, slow things down quite a bit... I like to take an extra bit of time and CREATE what I am chopping to.
@sorce had an awesome eggshell-style comment regarding this...
Something like...
"Don't chop to build, build to chop"
Something like that.
But, I respect your means and methodology... This is all about personal expression and personal rewards of horticulture...
And I understand, I sell landscape plants...I just like to grow the species I like (and always looking for more) because of the joy they bring. "TinyTree/Bonsai" just falls WITHIN my love of plants.
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HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
I had two landscape-stock-bound freemani's, (ending their second season) from 1st gen "stabilize" this year...but the rest still have their balls in the air... Or however you'd say that.
Those two mentioned are the "Mermelado Largo" and The Freemani displaying "Bloodleaf"...
There is also a MORE (first gen) silver-leafed Freemani, showing purple that, by fall, was 2/3 "stabilized"... So a LITTLE too early to call.
Gabler
Masterpiece
These three examples came from the same mother plant the same year. They're planted in identical containers, in the same potting media, receiving the same amount of sunlight and fertilizer.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Considering it’s a hybrid itself . Seeds from the tree could have characteristics of both parents or favour one or the other . My understanding is multiple seed generated hybrids will revert . To parent plant when the hybrid seeds . But I have no experience with free . The town I live in has red and silver mature trees . From what I have seen the reds . Always come true from seed . The silvers often display unique characteristics . Especially in foliage when young . But they eventually take on characteristics of silver . Is this hybrids or just unique silvers
. I’m fairly confident a hybrid from seed would come from a silver seed source . Not a red . If you had a forest of hybrids and no parent plants around ie refs silvers . Be very interesting what the hybrids produce from seed
Gabler
Masterpiece
Considering it’s a hybrid itself . Seeds from the tree could have characteristics of both parents or favour one or the other . My understanding is multiple seed generated hybrids will revert . To parent plant when the hybrid seeds . But I have no experience with free . The town I live in has red and silver mature trees . From what I have seen the reds . Always come true from seed . The silvers often display unique characteristics . Especially in foliage when young . But they eventually take on characteristics of silver . Is this hybrids or just unique silvers
If I understand what you're saying, seeds from hybrid parents tend to revert to resemble one species or the other. That certainly appears to be the case with the first seedling. It's a straight-up red maple. The second seedling has red-maple-shaped leaves, but they're as big as silver maple leaves, with proportionately large petioles and internodes. The third seedling has silver-maple-shaped leaves with red maple proportions.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Yes that is what I’m saying . Never know what you will get from hybrid seeds . And I would use the wording some will revert back to parent stock . From what I have read . Many fruit trees and conifers for example . You get a select cultivar . But the seeds produce a regular version of the plant . Not duplication of the characteristics of the cultivar . Also hybrids have a tendency to be more vigorous than parent stock . This can also be lost in following generations . I would imagine if you have a hybrid . It was cultivated once by cross breeding seeds . Then multiple hybrids were made by grafting . Just a hunch . I have no evidence how the maples are produced . So root stock may play into e equation. A lot of cultivars are discovered by nursery people . Simply planting thousands of seeds from possible cross pollinated parents . Than select unique plants
Kanorin
Omono
Sometimes (and I suspect this is the case here) the first hybrid generation is quite vigorous itself, perhaps even more than either parent, but it is less reproductively fit. Second generations and on beyond (in genetics denoted as F2, F3, etc) that first hybrid generation (F1) have a lot more variability and can be all over the board in terms of traits and characteristics. The first F1 generation is much more predictable from a genetics standpoint.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I feel the key to using many North American maples in bonsai is going to be to select for individual specimens with smaller-than-usual leaves and internodes. As ABCarve has shown, red maple leaves in particular refuse to reduce, and they have to be partly defoliated almost continually to remove the over-sized leaves as they grow on the tree. The alternative, I think, is selective breeding. @HorseloverFat has been selecting for various specimens with smaller-than-average leaves, and I'm following suit by planting large numbers of seeds from trees in my own area, with the intent to select the few with the best qualities.
Kanorin
Omono
I agree! I'm attempting to do something similar with red maples and crabapples.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
AB carve has a great maple . I’m not sure I can totally agree with your statement . The leaves do reduce as AB has proven. The trouble is if you are comparing to say Japanese maple . Which start off with smaller leaves and reduce significantly. ( in some cultivars more than others ) the. Native trees here start off much bigger leaves but they do reduce . Like all trees I think you need to work around there negative aspects . And accent the positive . Also remember the Japanese maple had been cultivated for a long time . And cultivars exist created with bonsai in mind . As for selecting seedlings . One must proceed with reservations . A young tree in small pot nay start off with desirable traits . That may not last into maturity . Or the transition to grow a trunk more rapidly . I have seen some of this .
Gabler
Masterpiece
I seem to recall from his progression thread that the leaves come back big every spring, and they need to be reduced by partial defoliation targeting the largest leaves. I'll check the thread when I get a chance.
In any case, that seems to be the way Freemans maples behave. The outer leaves are largest, and you can "reduce" them by selecting for the weaker inner leaves.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Yes I remember he does defoliate every year . To get smaller leaves . But if I remember correctly . He has a pic of a regular maple leaf and his end product leaves . And he has achieved some reduction . But I may also be incorrect it’s been awhile
Gabler
Masterpiece
32 year old Acer Rubrum
This tree has appeared in some other threads but I thought it deserving of it own. This was the first tree I ever collected (1987-1988) and it was out of my own woods. It was stumped a few inches above the ground line and then let grow for a season to recover as well as it could. The following...
32 year old Acer Rubrum
This tree has appeared in some other threads but I thought it deserving of it own. This was the first tree I ever collected (1987-1988) and it was out of my own woods. It was stumped a few inches above the ground line and then let grow for a season to recover as well as it could. The following...
32 year old Acer Rubrum
This tree has appeared in some other threads but I thought it deserving of it own. This was the first tree I ever collected (1987-1988) and it was out of my own woods. It was stumped a few inches above the ground line and then let grow for a season to recover as well as it could. The following...
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