Yamadori style a different perspective.

[wireme]

So we may be getting into an ethics of collecting conversation?
Go ahead if you like I'll try to stay out of that topic for now, I've had input into those threads before.

I started the thread with no mention of collecting or using yamadori.

Yamadori in the context of the thread are the models, the source of inspiration. As Adair stated it started with yamadori then they began to get replicated by man. If that's right the source of it all is these great little trees that fit into pots and yet we are always saying that we are trying to capture the essence of a big old tree in miniature. How about trying to capture the essence of a great small thing with no thoughts of miniaturization? Repeating myself now obviously.

Upon further consideration of this concept I've belatedly come to the conclusion that the very thing that makes the little dwarfed ones in the mountains so cool is that they do in fact look like bigger trees miniaturized!
Whoops, so much for that idea I guess. I still hold onto a bit of it in my mind to think on some more.

 

[aml1014]

So we may be getting into an ethics of collecting conversation?
Go ahead if you like I'll try to stay out of that topic for now, I've had input into those threads before.

I started the thread with no mention of collecting or using yamadori.

Yamadori in the context of the thread are the models, the source of inspiration. As Adair stated it started with yamadori then they began to get replicated by man. If that's right the source of it all is these great little trees that fit into pots and yet we are always saying that we are trying to capture the essence of a big old tree in miniature. How about trying to capture the essence of a great small thing with no thoughts of miniaturization? Repeating myself now obviously.

Upon further consideration of this concept I've belatedly come to the conclusion that the very thing that makes the little dwarfed ones in the mountains so cool is that they do in fact look like bigger trees miniaturized!
Whoops, so much for that idea I guess. I still hold onto a bit of it in my mind to think on some more.

I understand where your coming from here. None of the twisted old pondys I've seen in the mountains remind me of a big old tree, just old.
I appreciate the idea of styling these types of trees into what they truly are, just a little less wild.
Some of my pondys I don't see as big trees but instead something that has fought for the right to live, many of the 150+ft monsters seem to have it easy, good soil, lots of sun, and even some water!lol but these little guys on steep slopes that is nothing but rock have so much characer and beauty just as they are, why try to change that to make it seem like it's grown into a big tree with no struggle? That defeats the purpose of these trees IMO.

I dig your idea on the "yamadori" style!

Aaron

 

[wireme]

I understand where your coming from here. None of the twisted old pondys I've seen in the mountains remind me of a big old tree, just old.
I appreciate the idea of styling these types of trees into what they truly are, many just a little less wild.
Some of my pondys I don't see as big trees but instead something that has fought for the right to live, many of the 150+ft monsters seem to have it easy, good soil, lots of sun, and even some water!lol but these little guys on steep slopes that is nothing but rock have so much characer and beauty just as they are, why try to change that to make it seem like it's grown into a big tree with no struggle? That defeats the purpose of these trees IMO.

I dig your idea on the "yamadori" style!

Aaron

Ah, yeah that's the idea, exactly, thanks.

And let's not forget this can be applied to the "yamadori style" trees people start from scratch as much as a collected tree.

 

[sorce]

Ah, yeah that's the idea, exactly, thanks.

Good!

Now....

Pass that shit!

Lol...

Before I thought how those junipers don't really look like trees at all.

Now, I think my thoughts on the subject are ruined.

I understand....but I wish I didn't.

Sorce

 

[jeanluc83]

Most bonsai that look like full size trees are actually rather large themselves. As trees get smaller they become more abstract. You get the feeling of a larger tree but when you step back it really doesn't look like a full size tree.

This especially true for mame bonsai. There is really very little resemblance to big trees but for me these trees are just marvels. To have a tree that should be a 60 feet tall only a couple of inches tall is just cool.

 

[Adair M]

So we may be getting into an ethics of collecting conversation?
Go ahead if you like I'll try to stay out of that topic for now, I've had input into those threads before.

I started the thread with no mention of collecting or using yamadori.

Yamadori in the context of the thread are the models, the source of inspiration. As Adair stated it started with yamadori then they began to get replicated by man. If that's right the source of it all is these great little trees that fit into pots and yet we are always saying that we are trying to capture the essence of a big old tree in miniature. How about trying to capture the essence of a great small thing with no thoughts of miniaturization? Repeating myself now obviously.

Upon further consideration of this concept I've belatedly come to the conclusion that the very thing that makes the little dwarfed ones in the mountains so cool is that they do in fact look like bigger trees miniaturized!
Whoops, so much for that idea I guess. I still hold onto a bit of it in my mind to think on some more.

Lol!!

Take, for example, a cascade style tree. Believe me,the tree really doesn't want to grow that way! If it had its way, it would grow straight up! Its the combination of the available sunlight, winds, snow that force the branches down. Take a natural cascade out of the mountain, plant it in a less harsh environment, and it won't take very long that it won't be a cascade any more!

What we do with wire, pruning, and using small pots are our attempt to replicate the same effects that winds, snows, droughts, limited soil in the cracks of rocks, the occasional large bird have on the tree in nature. I suppose we could instead try dumping shovelfuls of snow on our trees, setting fans up next to them to simulate wind, etc. It might be difficult to simulate the drier air of the mountains or higher UV exposure though. Maybe a black light set up?

 

[jriddell88]

I personally have mixed feelings about yamadori. By collecting them the beauty of the tree can be enjoyed more often and shared with more people. But then, if all the pretty little trees are taken from the mountains, we are forever losing beauty in the mountains.

I've been told that there are no more wild shimpaku. All have been collected. I have no proof of that. If it's true, that's sad.

I have two yamadori. One is a Ponderosa Pine from Colorado. Not a big or particularly wonderful one. But it's an experiment to see if I can grow it and keep it healthy in my environment. What I've found so far is I can't reduce the needle length.

The other is a Western Juniper that I'm replacing the foliage with Kishu. As much as anything, I bought it to learn how to do the grafting.

At this time, I don't plan on getting any more.

How do you treat your ponderosa throughout the growing season, there are ways to reduce the needle length?

 

[aml1014]

Lol!!

Take, for example, a cascade style tree. Believe me,the tree really doesn't want to grow that way! If it had its way, it would grow straight up! Its the combination of the available sunlight, winds, snow that force the branches down. Take a natural cascade out of the mountain, plant it in a less harsh environment, and it won't take very long that it won't be a cascade any more!

What we do with wire, pruning, and using small pots are our attempt to replicate the same effects that winds, snows, droughts, limited soil in the cracks of rocks, the occasional large bird have on the tree in nature. I suppose we could instead try dumping shovelfuls of snow on our trees, setting fans up next to them to simulate wind, etc. It might be difficult to simulate the drier air of the mountains or higher UV exposure though. Maybe a black light set up?

I think the point he's trying to get across is that we style the trees and continue their journey they were on. He doesn't mean just plop it in a pot and call it bonsai, but to keep the tree styled more as a tree that's had a hard life but is still beautiful, rather then try and take a yamadori and train it to look like a big old giant. I like the idea of respecting them as yamadori and NOT trying to give them a look that always seems a bit contrived.
I mean, a twisted contorted trunk, should have some twisted contorted branches, not gently flowing branches that form some perfect crown, they just don't fit the scene IMO.

Aaron

 

[Adair M]

Well, I didn't fertilize it during the spring and early summer.

I don't withhold water. It's in a very open, well draining soil. I mean, I don't drown it, I do give it a light watering, about half what I give my other pines.

Full sun.

I'm hoping it produces more side buds and back buds. Then it will split its energy across more twigs, hopefully shortening the needles.

It was last repotted two years ago.



Next time I repot it will be more upright.

 

[wireme]

Good!

Now....

Pass that shit!

Lol...

Before I thought how those junipers don't really look like trees at all.

Now, I think my thoughts on the subject are ruined.

I understand....but I wish I didn't.

Sorce

If it makes you feel any better there are very large and crazy junipers out there in some parts of the world!
I like diversity in bonsai this is just one option to think about.
To widen the scope of the concept a bit do you ever look at your tree and try to picture how large of an image you're shooting for? A 20'er, 100? Maybe sometimes we can look at a tree that way and find a reason it doesn't quite work or a way to improve it.

 

[wireme]

Lol!!

Take, for example, a cascade style tree. Believe me,the tree really doesn't want to grow that way! If it had its way, it would grow straight up! Its the combination of the available sunlight, winds, snow that force the branches down. Take a natural cascade out of the mountain, plant it in a less harsh environment, and it won't take very long that it won't be a cascade any more!

What we do with wire, pruning, and using small pots are our attempt to replicate the same effects that winds, snows, droughts, limited soil in the cracks of rocks, the occasional large bird have on the tree in nature. I suppose we could instead try dumping shovelfuls of snow on our trees, setting fans up next to them to simulate wind, etc. It might be difficult to simulate the drier air of the mountains or higher UV exposure though. Maybe a black light set up?

Where any of that comes from I have no idea, the only explanation I can come up with is that you're talking to your own imagination. Maybe I just have poor communication skills.

 

[wireme]

I think the point he's trying to get across is that we style the trees and continue their journey they were on. He doesn't mean just plop it in a pot and call it bonsai, but to keep the tree styled more as a tree that's had a hard life but is still beautiful, rather then try and take a yamadori and train it to look like a big old giant. I like the idea of respecting them as yamadori and NOT trying to give them a look that always seems a bit contrived.
I mean, a twisted contorted trunk, should have some twisted contorted branches, not gently flowing branches that form some perfect crown, they just don't fit the scene IMO.

Aaron

Your previous post was more on the mark I think...but kind of... It's not easy to communicate these ideas and thoughts.

 

[Wilson]

You must be speaking Canadian @wireme cause all people seem to understand is yamadori, eh!

 

[aml1014]

It's not easy to communicate these ideas and thoughts.

Agreed, but I think you and I are on the same page.

Aaron

 

[wireme]

Agreed, but I think you and I are on the same page.

Aaron

I do too.

 

[just.wing.it]

it is a little dramatic saying that you "ripped it from nature's grasp".

Lol, I know...
Was playing devils advocate there...
Just wanted to see if there are any super guilt ridden bonsai practitioners out there.

 

[wireme]

You must be speaking Canadian @wireme cause all people seem to understand is yamadori, eh!

Yeah, no doubt eh?

 

[Adair M]

Where any of that comes from I have no idea, the only explanation I can come up with is that you're talking to your own imagination. Maybe I just have poor communication skills.

Oh, sorry...

I was talking about your statement about how you like the little trees from the moutains because the look like little trees from the mountains, and they are not trying to be miniaturized versions of big trees in the valley.

And so, what I was saying is the little tree in the mountain would grow like the big tree in the valley if it were transported and planted there. I just just a cascade as my example for a talking point.

Oh, yes... I have conversations with myself! Sometimes the drugs help! Lol!!

 

[Wilson]

I just started a $5 hedge cedar that I am styling like the ancient western cedars with candelabra apex.

 

[aml1014]

. I have conversations with myself! Sometimes the drugs help! Lol!!

Try running an acre tree lot and the only coworkers to talk to are the trees you take care of lol I get some crazy looks from the guys at the register when they come back here.

Aaron