Yamadori style a different perspective.

[wireme]

This is a spin-off of the rules thread, it got me thinking about things I sometimes think about.
It's about how Yamadori and old generationally developed conifer are styled and perceived, a different viewpoint.

I can say I've spent quite a lot of time tromping about in the type of terrain that produces the drool worthy western Yamadori. In my case mostly dry exposed sites, Doug Fir, RMJ and limber pine, other trees and ecotypes too on occasion. There's big trees and small trees both are inspiring and wonderful.

To get to the point do trees really need to be styled after and viewed as representations of the big ones? Some of the most amazing trees out there are under 10' tall every bit as impressive and old as their towering old counterparts in friendlier conditions.

Can we view them as exactly what they are? Look at them and think "that's an awesome little tree" instead of that's an awsome little tree that looks like a big old tree"..

People sometimes say trees are styled to look like pine trees "pine tree style". To me based on what I've been exposed to its not really a pine style at all, more like similar to the small stunted conifers on rocky mountainsides.

I've seen lots of trees out there that very closely follow the classic informal upright style, you'd think they read the books and followed the rules. Most of these are less than 10' tall, sometimes up to 30' but not often. The Pine tree style and informal upright style are both to me kind of a small yamadori style. Naturalistic even by that viewpoint. I know there's a lot of variety out there in the world, this is how I feel for now based on my exposure.

Anyhow I hope some of that made sense. The basic idea is what if someone told you their tree was designed to look like a cool and amazing 3' tall tree and not meant at all to represent a large tree? Would you say, "oh, ok, fair enough" or "What, that's just silly, you can't do that, think like that! "
Would anyone else consider styling a tree by this view and would that lead you to different designs than you currently think of?
I don't know if this has been discussed before I may be alone in my own crazy world.

 

[Wilson]

I hear you 100%, I have lived in different provinces and there are truly amazing trees! I enjoy the different appearances of trees growing in different environments, and hope to develop my skills to be able to capture this in my yard. For me training trees has always been a reflection of my love of the Canadian wilderness. I feel like a lot of people enjoy both traditional designs, and more natural designs like you mentioned. I think if you really love trees, you enjoy most of them. I seem to be drawn to the images in some chinese bonsai books I have, very natural designs.

 

[Wilson]

I could see an image like this on any given hike when I was living in BC and Ab!

 

[Djtommy]

This is a spin-off of the rules thread, it got me thinking about things I sometimes think about.
It's about how Yamadori and old generationally developed conifer are styled and perceived, a different viewpoint.

I can say I've spent quite a lot of time tromping about in the type of terrain that produces the drool worthy western Yamadori. In my case mostly dry exposed sites, Doug Fir, RMJ and limber pine, other trees and ecotypes too on occasion. There's big trees and small trees both are inspiring and wonderful.

To get to the point do trees really need to be styled after and viewed as representations of the big ones? Some of the most amazing trees out there are under 10' tall every bit as impressive and old as their towering old counterparts in friendlier conditions.

Can we view them as exactly what they are? Look at them and think "that's an awesome little tree" instead of that's an awsome little tree that looks like a big old tree"..

People sometimes say trees are styled to look like pine trees "pine tree style". To me based on what I've been exposed to its not really a pine style at all, more like similar to the small stunted conifers on rocky mountainsides.

I've seen lots of trees out there that very closely follow the classic informal upright style, you'd think they read the books and followed the rules. Most of these are less than 10' tall, sometimes up to 30' but not often. The Pine tree style and informal upright style are both to me kind of a small yamadori style. Naturalistic even by that viewpoint. I know there's a lot of variety out there in the world, this is how I feel for now based on my exposure.

Anyhow I hope some of that made sense. The basic idea is what if someone told you their tree was designed to look like a cool and amazing 3' tall tree and not meant at all to represent a large tree? Would you say, "oh, ok, fair enough" or "What, that's just silly, you can't do that, think like that! "
Would anyone else consider styling a tree by this view and would that lead you to different designs than you currently think of?
I don't know if this has been discussed before I may be alone in my own crazy world.

to me, if its visually appealing its all good.
offcourse i have a preference and i very much like trees that look like reall trees, but i have seen plenty of bonsai that dont represent their species but look totally awesome.
and really, lots of yamadori arent a good representation of how they naturally grow anywayz.

 

[wireme]

I could see an image like this on any given hike when I was living in BC and Ab!View attachment 121394

Yeah, that is nice, reminds me of limber or whitebark pine. Given the scale of the little dude it portrays a pretty small tree too, although you could imagine that image in all sorts of sizes.

 

[wireme]

to me, if its visually appealing its all good.
offcourse i have a preference and i very much like trees that look like reall trees, but i have seen plenty of bonsai that dont represent their species but look totally awesome.
and really, lots of yamadori arent a good representation of how they naturally grow anywayz.

My point is that they are a good represention of how they grow if you don't try to picture them as full sized trees. Sort of my thoughts there anyways. Does it make sense to think about appreciating them as what they are rather than always having to try to evoke the image of something much larger kind of thing. Not just Yamadori but nursery stock, developing trees, the end goal could be to emulate a really cool old three footer. Maybe thinking that way could open the door to some different designs that don't make sense full scale, inproportionate jinns and stuff maybe. I don't expect this to become a popular idea ever but interesting to think about.

 

[Adair M]

Wireme, the whole thing started by the Chinese finding naturally stunted trees in the high mountains and collectors "harvested" them, and kept them in pots.

Once they figured out they could grow trees in pots, they also discovered that not only gnarly naturally dwarfed by the elements trees are worthy of keeping as a potted tree, but everyday trees, the local pines, fruit trees, maples, elms, etc could also be grown in pots. And so then the hobby grew from its beginnings of collecting yamadori to growing trees of all kinds in pots. But rather than trying to keep full sized trees, the art became a study of how to refine trees to make young trees look old. So in effect they had to learn to artificially "age" the tree.


So after a while, the hobby evolved away from collecting yamadori as the supply of centuries old trees got smaller and smaller, to where the hobby became the craft of emulating natures effects.

It is interesting that in this country that collecting yamadori is all the rage. Taking wild trees and getting them into pots. Some even advocate do as little training as possible. Its a "Natural"bonsai.

Fine. There will come a time, just as it did in Japan, all the collectible trees will have been collected. What then?

I suggest that bonsai is not simply collecting and getting the tree into a pot, and call it good. For me, bonsai is developing, refining, and enhancing. The human touch. That is the "art".

 

[Wilson]

I think when you spend a lot of time in wild places, you realize that trees grow in an amazing assortment of "styles". I love Krummholtz zone trees, but often people in bonsai groups find trees style to reflect the effects look contrived. @wireme your thread on a competing apex branch is a good example. I see many of these trees, and enjoy them greatly, but others who don't have a connection to these types of trees find them ugly. I actually need to send you a couple photos of an old growth white pine with 3 apex branches, it's a monster!

 

[Djtommy]

My point is that they are a good represention of how they grow if you don't try to picture them as full sized trees. Sort of my thoughts there anyways. Does it make sense to think about appreciating them as what they are rather than always having to try to evoke the image of something much larger kind of thing. Not just Yamadori but nursery stock, developing trees, the end goal could be to emulate a really cool old three footer. Maybe thinking that way could open the door to some different designs that don't make sense full scale, inproportionate jinns and stuff maybe. I don't expect this to become a popular idea ever but interesting to think about.

Well, i do believe that yamadori have a natural beauty, even when having done nothing to them they can be beautifull. But i do think its up to the artist to enhance that beauty. Doing nothing to them especially in the case of nursery trees i wouldnt call bonsai but ueki, something like garden tree, also in a pot it would be called ueki.
But sure, they can be appreciated for what they are.

 

[jeremy_norbury]

@wireme I do think you're crazy, but that's beside the point because we all are here!!!

I don't care that my little tree (yamadori or otherwise) doesn't look like a real tree (especially if it's got some wackiness going on) but in general I prefer that it does (look like a real tree).

What I mean is I like little trees in pots and they don't have to make sense in the real world for me to enjoy them.

 

[Wilson]

I think the fact is that in the real world trees do often look bizarre. As @wireme mentioned, there are plenty of small trees in nature that will never "full" size trees. Also there are plenty of formal bonsai that don't really seem like "real" trees.

 

[just.wing.it]

Does anyone feel bad about ripping an old tree away from mother nature's grasp?

 

[GGB]

ABSOLUTELY 100% have noticed that all my favorite "wild trees" top out at 10, 12, 15 feet of so. Most of them would be considered informal upright or literati style if they were in a pot. I kind of figuretthat I work on a 1:12 scale 1" of bonsai equals 1' of tree. Most of my trees are shaping up to be 12 or 18 inches. Like @jeremy_norbury said, my trees are for me, and right now they are humble mountain pines

 

[aml1014]

Does anyone feel bad about ripping an old tree away from mother nature's grasp?

Nope, since starting Bonsai I have collected 37 trees. Out of all of them, I've lost 3. When those 3 passed it made me very sad that I had taken them, but all the others that thrive make me quite happy.
One rule I have when collecting, taught to me by my teacher, is to never take a tree that is the only one around because then that tree will be gone from the area forever.
People must also respect trees that can not be collected, I see them as the guardians of the mountain, as they have seen so much more in their life then any human could imagine and have struggled to survive, and yet, they are still beautiful. Trees can't talk out loud or walk about, but they are still sentient beings, that communicate.

Aaron

 

[wireme]

Wireme, the whole thing started by the Chinese finding naturally stunted trees in the high mountains and collectors "harvested" them, and kept them in pots.

Once they figured out they could grow trees in pots, they also discovered that not only gnarly naturally dwarfed by the elements trees are worthy of keeping as a potted tree, but everyday trees, the local pines, fruit trees, maples, elms, etc could also be grown in pots. And so then the hobby grew from its beginnings of collecting yamadori to growing trees of all kinds in pots. But rather than trying to keep full sized trees, the art became a study of how to refine trees to make young trees look old. So in effect they had to learn to artificially "age" the tree.


So after a while, the hobby evolved away from collecting yamadori as the supply of centuries old trees got smaller and smaller, to where the hobby became the craft of emulating natures effects.

It is interesting that in this country that collecting yamadori is all the rage. Taking wild trees and getting them into pots. Some even advocate do as little training as possible. Its a "Natural"bonsai.

Fine. There will come a time, just as it did in Japan, all the collectible trees will have been collected. What then?

I suggest that bonsai is not simply collecting and getting the tree into a pot, and call it good. For me, bonsai is developing, refining, and enhancing. The human touch. That is the "art".

Adair, my post was about a viewpoint on what yamadori style is or a perspective of what it could be viewed as. The style not the history of the material. Lots of trees are being grown from nothing as "yamadori style" there's lots out there that have already been fully grown and developed by man to mimic yamadori. That's a very good thing and I admire those trees immensely.

 

[wireme]

Well, i do believe that yamadori have a natural beauty, even when having done nothing to them they can be beautifull. But i do think its up to the artist to enhance that beauty. Doing nothing to them especially in the case of nursery trees i wouldnt call bonsai but ueki, something like garden tree, also in a pot it would be called ueki.
But sure, they can be appreciated for what they are.

I agree, even the nicest tree you will ever see you will find yourself walking around the trunk to see the features hidden or if it's small enough moving branches out of the way to view what you want to see. The wild untamed look is cool but doing work to enhance the beauty is probably best for most people's tastes.

 

[wireme]

@wireme I do think you're crazy, but that's beside the point because we all are here!!!

I don't care that my little tree (yamadori or otherwise) doesn't look like a real tree (especially if it's got some wackiness going on) but in general I prefer that it does (look like a real tree).

What I mean is I like little trees in pots and they don't have to make sense in the real world for me to enjoy them.

I've noticed the odd bit of whackiness in your collection, never seen anyone here complain about it. You must be doing something right!

 

[wireme]

I think the fact is that in the real world trees do often look bizarre. As @wireme mentioned, there are plenty of small trees in nature that will never "full" size trees. Also there are plenty of formal bonsai that don't really seem like "real" trees.

ABSOLUTELY 100% have noticed that all my favorite "wild trees" top out at 10, 12, 15 feet of so. Most of them would be considered informal upright or literati style if they were in a pot. I kind of figuretthat I work on a 1:12 scale 1" of bonsai equals 1' of tree. Most of my trees are shaping up to be 12 or 18 inches. Like @jeremy_norbury said, my trees are for me, and right now they are humble mountain pines

Thanks both of you for showing you understand what I'm trying to say! It's not always easier to communicate these kinds of ideas.

 

[jeanluc83]

Does anyone feel bad about ripping an old tree away from mother nature's grasp?

I think it is all about perspective. If it was a young tree would you feel bad? What about a seedling? Removing it would mean little now but what about in a couple hundred years.

Do you feel bad when you pull weeds out of your garden? You are ripping them from "nature's grasp" and killing them for no other reason than you don't like them growing there.

It can be upsetting when a collected tree dies but it is a little dramatic saying that you "ripped it from nature's grasp".

 

[Adair M]

I think it is all about perspective. If it was a young tree would you feel bad? What about a seedling? Removing it would mean little now but what about in a couple hundred years.

Do you feel bad when you pull weeds out of your garden? You are ripping them from "nature's grasp" and killing them for no other reason than you don't like them growing there.

It can be upsetting when a collected tree dies but it is a little dramatic saying that you "ripped it from nature's grasp".

I personally have mixed feelings about yamadori. By collecting them the beauty of the tree can be enjoyed more often and shared with more people. But then, if all the pretty little trees are taken from the mountains, we are forever losing beauty in the mountains.

I've been told that there are no more wild shimpaku. All have been collected. I have no proof of that. If it's true, that's sad.

I have two yamadori. One is a Ponderosa Pine from Colorado. Not a big or particularly wonderful one. But it's an experiment to see if I can grow it and keep it healthy in my environment. What I've found so far is I can't reduce the needle length.

The other is a Western Juniper that I'm replacing the foliage with Kishu. As much as anything, I bought it to learn how to do the grafting.

At this time, I don't plan on getting any more.