Yamadori on Slab Order of Operations

[littletreefarmer]

Good Morning Everyone,

I'm in the process of planning out a major slab composition for a collected Pitch Pine and I have thought of a few questions during planning. I collected the tree in question Spring of 2023 so I have another season until I will be thinking of repotting at all, but I want to start planning my course of action now.

As I understand it the current process for most people is to collect the trees, plant in a grow box with pumice for 2 years, style, repot partially replacing field soil, then some years later repot again replacing the remaining field soil in the shin. Makes a lot of sense. When planting a collected tree on a slab though, is this process changed? It seems like a lot of people must be going directly to the slabs from the pumice box, but not a lot of documentation or discussion about soil replacement during this process. In my mind, one would want the whole process of the field soil being replaced to be done prior to planting on the slab as I would think that field soil in the shin on a slab could be a very anaerobic environment. But on the other hand I can make the argument for the tree having the most vigor at the first repot and putting it on the slab then.

So, Bonsai Nuts, what would your order of operations be for this composition and what is your reasoning for this methodology? Thanks!

 

[rockm]

Good Morning Everyone,

I'm in the process of planning out a major slab composition for a collected Pitch Pine and I have thought of a few questions during planning. I collected the tree in question Spring of 2023 so I have another season until I will be thinking of repotting at all, but I want to start planning my course of action now.

As I understand it the current process for most people is to collect the trees, plant in a grow box with pumice for 2 years, style, repot partially replacing field soil, then some years later repot again replacing the remaining field soil in the shin. Makes a lot of sense. When planting a collected tree on a slab though, is this process changed? It seems like a lot of people must be going directly to the slabs from the pumice box, but not a lot of documentation or discussion about soil replacement during this process. In my mind, one would want the whole process of the field soil being replaced to be done prior to planting on the slab as I would think that field soil in the shin on a slab could be a very anaerobic environment. But on the other hand I can make the argument for the tree having the most vigor at the first repot and putting it on the slab then.

So, Bonsai Nuts, what would your order of operations be for this composition and what is your reasoning for this methodology? Thanks!

I think You're going to need more than a year before the tree is going to be ready for such treatment. Three years in recovery (deeper training pot, undisturbed roots, etc) is about the minimum for collected conifers. All this depends on what the root mass looks like, size, direction of major roots, etc.

 

[littletreefarmer]

I think You're going to need more than a year before the tree is going to be ready for such treatment. Three years in recovery (deeper training pot, undisturbed roots, etc) is about the minimum for collected conifers. All this depends on what the root mass looks like, size, direction of major roots, etc.

Well, by my counting all of 2023 and 2024 is 2 years, not 1. Also most of the information I have read from all over the place states 2 years is the standard, not 3. I plan to see how the tree grows this year, but last year was tremendously healthy. This tree also came from a pocket of rock and about 98% of the roots were collected intact.

Not really answering my question, though, can I go directly to a slab from the grow box or should there be a bonsai container intermediate step for a few years? Should the field soil be completely replaced before planting a pine on a slab or can the same 2-step process be used with the same results?

 

[BrianBay9]

You should let the tree tell you when it's ready for work. I used to regularly collect Ponderosa pines. Some trees were workable in a year, some took three or four. You should wait until you're getting good, aggressive growth again, then plan work for the following season.

As far as planting on a slab goes, it will all depend on the roots. You shouldn't force a tree with unworked, large roots (or long roots, or roots in unmanageable positions) onto the slab. Roots of that description will require several repottings to sort them out and prepare for the slab.

 

[littletreefarmer]

You should let the tree tell you when it's ready for work. I used to regularly collect Ponderosa pines. Some trees were workable in a year, some took three or four. You should wait until you're getting good, aggressive growth again, then plan work for the following season.

As far as planting on a slab goes, it will all depend on the roots. You shouldn't force a tree with unworked, large roots (or long roots, or roots in unmanageable positions) onto the slab. Roots of that description will require several repottings to sort them out and prepare for the slab.

This is along what I was thinking. Fortunately nothing in bonsai comes easily.

Like I said, I'm still just planning what will be next for this tree, and plans change. I'm thankful for all the advice and perspectives I can get.

 

[rockm]

Well, by my counting all of 2023 and 2024 is 2 years, not 1. Also most of the information I have read from all over the place states 2 years is the standard, not 3. I plan to see how the tree grows this year, but last year was tremendously healthy. This tree also came from a pocket of rock and about 98% of the roots were collected intact.

Not really answering my question, though, can I go directly to a slab from the grow box or should there be a bonsai container intermediate step for a few years? Should the field soil be completely replaced before planting a pine on a slab or can the same 2-step process be used with the same results?

to directly answer your question, then:

No I would not move a two-year collected conifer to a slab directly from a grow box. and FWIW, I don't know where you're reading on the Internet that two years is adequate recovery time for a collected pine, but you may want to check with people who actually have collected pines in person. The internet says a lot of shit. Doesn't make it true. It CAN be true, IF you know what you're working with and how to work on it.

Slabs are tremendously stressful environments for trees in general. I've got trees growing on them --some for a couple of decades...They dry out quickly, they are subject to temperature extremes in summer and winter, roots are exposed to winds and animals, and they severely limit--more so than any pot--root development. Keeping soil in place can be a huge issue for those who have never planted on a slab. Losing soil makes all the above problems worse.

All of the above means you have to maximize root development (number, density AND DIRECTION) of those roots before you plunk your tree on a slab. If you're working with a piddly sapling yanked out of a hole with most of its roots, all this could possibly be done on your accelerated timeline. (BTW, forcing trees into containers too early is a huge newbie mistake that kills trees.) If it's an older tree with extensive roots that have piled up in a rock pocket, you have several years of intelligent reduction and redirection ahead. You have to repot several times to both get to know what's going on under the soil, as well as plan what to do with the roots. It could be all that growth is tied directly to a single root --that might have to be reduced or removed, for instance.

 

[Shogun610]

post a picture what are we working with, the age , roots , etc will all play into factor for how well it responds to post collection and when the tree tells you it’s ready. It’s not usually good to put a timeline on post collected material, but generally it takes a few growing seasons for you to truly assess the tree and determine if it’s healthy enough based on growth , root activity, percolation, and ability to thwart off any possible infestations. I have collected a few pitch pines over couple years and they are still in collection containers, one at the studio was collected. 6 years ago and still isn’t ready, it depends on how much roots are left when you collect as well.

 

[littletreefarmer]

post a picture what are we working with, the age , roots , etc will all play into factor for how well it responds to post collection and when the tree tells you it’s ready. It’s not usually good to put a timeline on post collected material, but generally it takes a few growing seasons for you to truly assess the tree and determine if it’s healthy enough based on growth , root activity, percolation, and ability to thwart off any possible infestations. I have collected a few pitch pines over couple years and they are still in collection containers, one at the studio was collected. 6 years ago and still isn’t ready, it depends on how much roots are left when you collect as well.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ltfs-pitch-pine-1.63310/

I just started a thread with updates to-date. Sorry, I'm really trying to get better at taking more and better photos. I will try to get an update photo with the sunny weather tomorrow.

Thank you both @rockm and @Shogun610 for the advice, and I agree. Shogun, I've been lurking several of your Pitch Pine threads for months now.

I feel like I am getting a bit over excited thinking about the possibilities with this tree that I'm putting the plans before the progress. I obviously want this tree to be as healthy as possible going forward, and I wouldn't plan to put it into such an extreme situation as a slab until I'm sure it is ready. That was the nature of my questioning, though. I simply wanted to start thinking if I should probably have several stages of repotting and root work before planning to do such a composition. I just see the timeline some of the pros get with some of their material and it seems extremely rapid in terms of collection to container or slabs, and I understand I am not a Bjorn or Ryan but their timelines still seem very fast.

 

[rockm]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ltfs-pitch-pine-1.63310/

I just started a thread with updates to-date. Sorry, I'm really trying to get better at taking more and better photos. I will try to get an update photo with the sunny weather tomorrow.

Thank you both @rockm and @Shogun610 for the advice, and I agree. Shogun, I've been lurking several of your Pitch Pine threads for months now.

I feel like I am getting a bit over excited thinking about the possibilities with this tree that I'm putting the plans before the progress. I obviously want this tree to be as healthy as possible going forward, and I wouldn't plan to put it into such an extreme situation as a slab until I'm sure it is ready. That was the nature of my questioning, though. I simply wanted to start thinking if I should probably have several stages of repotting and root work before planning to do such a composition. I just see the timeline some of the pros get with some of their material and it seems extremely rapid in terms of collection to container or slabs, and I understand I am not a Bjorn or Ryan but their timelines still seem very fast.

I think watching Ryan and Bjorn can have a steep downside. They CAN instill unrealistic expectations for use "mere mortals." BTW, If they're putting trees on slabs two years out of a hillside, I'll eat my hat. Of course they have access to material that may already be suited for that. Most of us don't have a Randy Knight or Backcountry Bonsai out there finding dozens and dozens and dozens of unique yamadori that can be handled differently.

A more realistic approach for someone without those vast deep resources, is to take it slow. While their failure may just be one of a hundred stock yamadori in their holding areas, your failure means you're out of a choice piece of material that isn't so easily replaced. Yes, watch Ryan and Bjorn, but keep in mind they're working with a safety net and you're not.

 

[Shibui]

Slabs are tremendously stressful environments for trees in general.

I'll back this up. Tried for years to grow trees on rock slabs but in my hot, dry climate they struggle. I've never had one thrive for long so have given up on rock slabs for bonsai. Of course, that might just be my lack of skills??
Slabs tend to have shallow soil which dries out quickly anyway but added to that the rock tends to absorb water out of the soil and evaporate it into the surrounding air much quicker than good quality bonsai pots so soils dry out even quicker than shallow pots.
On the upside, with that additional water loss you'll very rarely have problems with soggy soil and root rot which also means it is possible to use much finer soil mix, possibly including field soil which would quickly kill a tree in another pot.

Definitely take your time getting the root system adjusted and well ramified before trying a slab.
Why not try planting something expendable on the slab while the Yamadori is recovering? You'll get some experience and learn some of the pitfalls of slab culture without risking the tree. If the test subject survives you can always move it to another container when the desired tree is ready for it's slab.

 

[BrianBay9]

One thing I've thought about doing, but never got done - grow a tree on a slab like it were a root over rock. Let roots dangle over the edges and live in a secondary, larger pot underneath the slab. Only cut those roots when preparing to show. Might solve some of @Shibui 's problems. Anybody try it that way?

 

[IzzyG]

A few posters have already mentioned that the primary factor(s) is making sure the tree is healthy enough and that a slab planting is appropriate for the tree. Beyond that however, planting collected material on a slab shares similar considerations to a regular container. The main one being “will it fit/what do I have to do to make it fit”. I have done about a dozen yamadori to slab repots and much like any other initial container repots, start reduction of the native rootball from the point of biggest restriction.

So if a collected tree is in a recovery box on the right extreme and has a long growbox space on the left, then any repotting consideration will require reduction of the rootball from the left(depending on the slab/container/new planting position). It’s unlikely (and you don’t want to) remove all of the native soil even if you’re going onto a slab on the first repot. Keep reducing the left side(in this example) until you hit a restriction based on what you see in the root system. Or if the growbox is extremely deep, you might want to start reduction from the bottom to fit the slab/container/new position. Working in that manner will help you decide if you’re able to safely make the transition onto a slab immediately or if an intermediary container is needed. In short, you’ll want to repot again(to remove the remaining native soil) even if your first go to repot is onto a slab.

 

[littletreefarmer]

Thanks everyone! Lots of useful information to consider here.

@IzzyG thanks for the considered response! This was along the lines of what I was looking for. I guess I didn't really consider that the field soil could be seen as helpful to some degree, @Shibui, but I could see how dry a slab could become now that you and others bring it up. This will be a very long-term project and you guys have all put wind in my sails to take it slow. I will continue to update the thread I made for this tree, and hopefully you will all see some great results in the coming years.