Wire Usage?

[reefed419]

I am wondering what size wire does everyone use most frequently use?

Also wondering what size wire would be best/good for tying the trees to the pots?

What type of wire are you using?

 

[Eric Group]

Wire size depends on the size of the branch you are trying to bend.

To tie a tree into a pot I use smaller gauge wire and generally try to use copper wire because too much aluminum in the soil can be harmful- even downright poisonous- to some trees. Azaleas are one example of that.

 

[Dav4]

It really depends on the species of tree, along with stage in development. Aluminum for deciduous and copper for conifers, though I've used aluminum with success on my conifers for years and have just made the switch to copper. Less developed or undeveloped stock will need heavier wires to bend big branches...more developed stock will need smaller wire for fine wiring.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Wire size depends on the size of the branch you are trying to bend.

To tie a tree into a pot I use smaller gauge wire and generally try to use copper wire because too much aluminum in the soil can be harmful- even downright poisonous- to some trees. Azaleas are one example of that.

I have used aluminum on this azalea for 15 years with no signs of poisoning; to secure mesh over drain holes, to wire branches, and particularly 2.5mm to tie it into the pot; as Al stretches a bit to allow for the expanding root system. At what point can I expect this become harmful?

To the OP: you can never have enough wire. 1.5-6mm Al, 4-18ga Cu.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

I bought 6 through 16ga in copper on Adair's advice, it's worked out well. I've used literally every size wiring JBP prebonsai.

 

[jk_lewis]

try to use copper wire because too much aluminum in the soil can be harmful-

Fiddlesticks! No aluminum salts will "leach" out of aluminum wire. Like so much horticultural information associated with the bonsai world, this is poppycock.

At what point can I expect this become harmful?

At NO point.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Fiddlesticks! No aluminum salts will "leach" out of aluminum wire. Like so much horticultural information associated with the bonsai world, this is poppycock.
At NO point.

My point exactly.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Aren't there the same concerns for copper? Then in reading Naka's book he shows that he buries the wire for bending the trunk into the soil to give it something to lever against. In this practical use it's not killing the tree.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Aren't there the same concerns for copper?

Yes, and those concerns are similarly unfounded in our use of copper for bonsai.

 

[reefed419]

Thanks Everyone!

I want to thank everyone for the replies, so I should order 6-16 gauge wire?

 

[Skinnygoomba]

That works for me in CU, but I'm currently bending a lot of trunks, so I needed something heavy enough to bend and not spring back significantly.

The trunks I've been bending are about 1" thick.

Brian rec's 4-18ga, I'd take that advice as there are many scenarios where I think that 4ga would be helpful to have around.

 

[Eric Group]

I have used aluminum on this azalea for 15 years with no signs of poisoning; to secure mesh over drain holes, to wire branches, and particularly 2.5mm to tie it into the pot; as Al stretches a bit to allow for the expanding root system. At what point can I expect this become harmful?

To the OP: you can never have enough wire. 1.5-6mm Al, 4-18ga Cu.

Obviously a nice tree- but does one example debunk the research performed on the toxic effects of Aluminum on plants and trees (especially on root growth)?

I don't have an exact answer, but you can assess the potential for damage yourself with just a little bit of research on the Internet. Al is a toxin responsible for maladies of all sorts in multiple types of plants and trees, and it is apparently worsened in acidic soils.... So at what point will it harm your tree? Perhaps it already is, but I suspect it will start to harm it more once the acidity of the soil has worked its way through the coating most aluminum wire has on the outside of it... I doubt adding a little bit of aluminum is immediately FATAL, but... Why risk it? Seems comparable to Russian roulette if you ask me. While a strong tree may tolerate and work through a certain amount of toxins in it's soil, that tree will be healthier still WITHOUT those toxins present... So, if it works for you, by all means keep on using it i guess. Doesn't mean it is appropriate to recommend that people add a potentially toxic substance to their soil by tying their tree into a pot with aluminum wire. But please don't take my word for it as you obviously think I made this up or something?

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/107/2/315.full.pdf

That is a pretty scientific breakdown that gets into cation exchange, the effects of different kinds of Aluminum, close ups of the differences in root growth when toxic levels of aluminum are and are not present... You could also try dumping a bit of aluminum sulphate in your soil at the next repot if you REALLY want to thumb your nose at science... I mean it does acidify the soil after all which seems to make it a logical ingredient to add for an acid loving tree like an azalea- and it is even recommended by many nursery people as a good soil additive for plants like azaleas and Blueberries, but after being given that recommendation years ago, I KILLED an azalea with this stuff... It is not a good soil additive as it turns out and is on the contrary potentially fatal for some plants! Aluminum sulphate mixed into the soil is obviously not the same thing as a little piece of wire tying the screen in at the bottom of the pot or holding the rootball in... But how much is bad for the tree? When will it harm the tree? Who knows! It varies depending on the type of tree, the acidity of the soil and the presence or absence of other micronutrients like Ca... So, good luck with that Bryan, I hope it never harms your tree because it truly is a beauty!

 

[Eric Group]

Fiddlesticks! No aluminum salts will "leach" out of aluminum wire. Like so much horticultural information associated with the bonsai world, this is poppycock.



At NO point.

Again, you guys are welcome to believe what you like. I am just saying aluminum IS a potentially harmful ingredient for soils. If you are 100% confident that you can put the wire in your soil and it won't leach out... Well, believe that. I have read the opinions of many people whose opinions I value that it can and does happen at times. Perhaps it varies depending on the type of wire used, how much is used, type of soil, size of the pot..... But I have seen the negative effects of aluminum in soil and chose to try to avoid it personally.

I think of it like this- aluminum wire comes with a color coating on it normally.. Brown or copper colored usually.. After a couple months in the sun, rain and weather that coating does wear off, and the chemicals from it will certainly leach out into your soil. How much of that is aluminum? How much of it is harmful? How much of it does it take to have a negative effect On The tree? I don't have the answers... My point is just that I chose to avoid putting that in my soil when at all possible.

On the contrary, I have also read of the POSITIVE benefits from small amounts of copper in your soil- specifically that a little copper can help a tree by diminishing damage from cold winter temps... And copper deficiencies and lead to all sorts of issues like delayed blooms, portly formed leaves, discoloration... Some say that these benefits of copper are part of the reason why the copper watering cans have been so popular among Japanese masters for years/ decades/ centuries?... And I have even heard recommendations that if you are not using copper watering cans, you should drop a couple old pennies in the can (pre 1982 I think is the time they used mostly copper in pennies) to add a small amount of copper, and/ or use copper wire to wire your trees into the pot (obviously TOO MUCH copper would be a bad thing as well, but that is true of most any soil additive). Of course, none of that is proven or scientific, just more poppycock I am sure!

Regardless, that is a good summary of my personal reasons for preferring copper wire over aluminum when wiring my trees into their pots.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Nope, I don't think you made it up. In fact this topic has come up before. I just read the research myself, and feel that stating aluminum or copper wire is toxic to trees on a bonsai forum is a bit like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

Even the article you cited, and many that preceded it, admit that aluminum poisioning and the required "chain of events that finally affects plant growth remains largely speculative." The rest of the paper describes conditions that must develop before some plants will present slowed root growth...including very low pH, ionization, and even binding with other elements. So, your suggestion of dosing the tree with aluminum sulfate does nothing to prove your claim that aluminum itself is harmful or poisonous. Its like saying it should be safe to eat Sodium and Chlorine, since Sodium Chloride is safe. Chemistry doesn't work that way.

The research is a weak argument for our purposes, and in no way should we be concerned about using inert aluminum wire on our trees or in the soil.

 

[Bunjeh]

Useful article

This is a good basic article on wiring.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Wiring Page2.html

I have noticed that I seem to go through a lot of 1mm, 1.5mm, and 3.5mm wire. Aluminum is cheaper and reusable. Copper is more expensive, difficult to reuse, but very strong and a smaller gauge is as effective as aluminum wire that is 30% larger.

That said, If I am doing pulleys or braces I will actually use old coat hangers that I have covered by threading them through a small piece of 1/4" black irrigation hose.

 

[Eric Group]

Nope, I don't think you made it up. In fact this topic has come up before. I just read the research myself, and feel that stating aluminum or copper wire is toxic to trees on a bonsai forum is a bit like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

Even the article you cited, and many that preceded it, admit that aluminum poisioning and the required "chain of events that finally affects plant growth remains largely speculative." The rest of the paper describes conditions that must develop before some plants will present slowed root growth...including very low pH, ionization, and even binding with other elements. So, your suggestion of dosing the tree with aluminum sulfate does nothing to prove your claim that aluminum itself is harmful or poisonous. Its like saying it should be safe to eat Sodium and Chlorine, since Sodium Chloride is safe. Chemistry doesn't work that way.

The research is a weak argument for our purposes, and in no way should we be concerned about using inert aluminum wire on our trees or in the soil.

I thought it was pretty clear I was being somewhat sarcastic with the Aluminum sulphate comments... The point was that Aluminum is potentially toxic. I don't know why this was such a sticking point for you from the start, but you are free to believe whatever you wish Bryan. All science is speculative to a degree, and any scientist who declares a theory and line of study to be thoroughly completed and exhausted has just talked their way out of a job because nobody pays grants to fund the study of something that requires no further research! My points from the start have simply been 1- multiple sources have sighted the damages that Al can cause to plants 2- Reputable Bonsai professionals have said it IS "possible" for it to leach into the soil from wire, and that is something to be cautious of. The "it's not true because I say so" argument deployed as a counter has done little to sway my personal opinion, and the "science" behind that stance is no less speculative than the scion space supporting my opinion. While I have tremendous respect for you and you and your opinions, I will agree to disagree on this point, error on the side of caution and continue to use wire composed of an element (copper) that can be beneficial in small quantities instead of one that is known to be toxic when wiring my trees into their pots.

Never said I would not or do not use Aluminum wire at all, my concern has always been centered around using it in the soil alone where the soil acidity and potential for interaction with other elements might cause issues.. I do use it on branches and trunks, just do my best to keep it above the soil level.. That is Just what I do- doesn't make it right or wrong.

 

[Bunjeh]

Aluminum Sulfate

Trouble is that aluminum does not break down in to aluminum sulfate. Aluminum sulfate is a completely different chemical compound and is commonly used to lower the Ph of soil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_sulfate

When aluminum breaks down it actually forms aluminum oxide, or andonizes, which actually protects the aluminum from further decomposition.

So, sounds to me like the reputable sources warning against the use of aluminum wire probably own stock in a copper mine.

 

[Giga]

I have every size of aluminum and some larger copper for larger bends. Not sure if it's mentioned but I also use stainless wire for guide wires as it much stronger then copper. I use more aluminum wire as its a lot cheaper and can be re-used, plus I'm slightly cheap Anyway I've use aluminum on all my tree for the last 5 years and I C no ill effects.

 

[Vance Wood]

Fiddlesticks! No aluminum salts will "leach" out of aluminum wire. Like so much horticultural information associated with the bonsai world, this is poppycock.



At NO point.

I do not wish to start a Copper versus Aluminum war but there is serious evidence that Copper is more of a threat to a tree, on many levels.

 

[armetisius]

Aluminum wire

The earlier discussion resurrected a previous test from years ago.
I had planned to get around to this sooner but will have a fuller
write up on my blog later on.
These two aluminum samples began on April 18th of this year:

• ammonium sulfate [most common nitrogen source in prepared fertilizers today]
• Bright yellow and green box major brand plant food [name not used for legal reasons]

And things progressed to this in 90 days on your "pure aluminum"

I believe what I can see and ignore the empty reassurances of a hobbyist(s).