Will the "huge trunk, no nebari" trend be the future of bonsai?

[Clicio]

I've been watching the way - apparently fashionable - that people doing bonsai get all enthusiastic about big trunks with no branches, no radial roots, no interesting deadwood but...
Large.
Heavy.
Thick.
Some are literally ground trees freshly dug out from the ground, chopped down, and sold immediately.
Of course a big, impressive trunk, can be part of a good bonsai; what I question here is: what about the elegant, the tall, the flared, the literati, the forests, the small delicate flowering bonsai in a beautiful pot?
Nope. Not impressive enough.
I am talking about most new enthusiasts on the Internet groups.
For them, bigger is always better.

 

[bonsaichile]

I've been watching the way - apparently fashionable - that people doing bonsai get all enthusiastic about big trunks with no branches, no radial roots, no interesting deadwood but...
Large.
Heavy.
Thick.
Some are literally ground trees freshly dug out from the ground, chopped down, and sold immediately.
Of course a big, impressive trunk, can be part of a good bonsai; what I question here is: what about the elegant, the tall, the flared, the literati, the forests, the small delicate flowering bonsai in a beautiful pot?
Nope. Not impressive enough.
I am talking about most new enthusiasts on the Internet groups.
For them, bigger is always better.

But they dont need to follow the rules!!!

 

[rockm]

The "big trunk" thing has always been the case for the most part. The trend in the last decade or so is actually going the other direction. I've noticed that there are A LOT more excellent quality shohin and medium sized bonsai around these days. Yes, there are huge trees with no taper or nebari, but those are generally owned and operated by people who are relatively new to bonsai--I used to be one of those. All my "Big Trunk,No branching" trees have developed both over a couple of decades.

The appeal of large trees is that they are immediately impressive --particularly to people who don't know bonsai. Big bonsai can absorb more abuse and less than adequate care and still be presentable. The smaller the tree, the more expertise needed to keep it looking good. People move on from large trees, particularly, as I'm finding out, as they get older and can no longer move or lift them without threat of injury.

 

[Cajunrider]

I've been watching the way - apparently fashionable - that people doing bonsai get all enthusiastic about big trunks with no branches, no radial roots, no interesting deadwood but...
Large.
Heavy.
Thick.
Some are literally ground trees freshly dug out from the ground, chopped down, and sold immediately.
Of course a big, impressive trunk, can be part of a good bonsai; what I question here is: what about the elegant, the tall, the flared, the literati, the forests, the small delicate flowering bonsai in a beautiful pot?
Nope. Not impressive enough.
I am talking about most new enthusiasts on the Internet groups.
For them, bigger is always better.

For me, the big impressive trunk is a good start. The rest still have to come to make a good bonsai. The only thing I can say is that it offers a somewhat better start than a stick in a pot. An apparent example is my Batman bald cypress. To me it is simply a huge stick in a pot but is surely has potential.

 

[Maiden69]

@Clicio I do agree with you, but I do think that those huge trunks given the proper training can eventually provide a decent nebari. For me, the trunk is the part of the tree that takes the longest to develop. I would consider a plus if someone is able to dig a tree with a decent trunk, then manipulate it into flaring either with techniques like Ebihara or with root grafts. That would at least save 5-10 years. Will it look like a 50+ year tree grown in a pot all its life? Probably not, but depending on the species it could.

Now... I to have seen the hunk-o-trunk with no branches that definitely look like they could take a trip to the guillotine and lose 2/3 of their height in order to look reasonable.

 

[Gabler]

Listen to songs in the top fifty, and compare them to the more technically complex pieces from classical composers. The former are far more accessible and therefore more popular. The same thing is true for any other creative endeavor. Boldness beats refinement. That’s not a value judgment—just an observation. I’m not claiming I prefer classical music.

 

[Clicio]

Yes, there are huge trees with no taper or nebari, but those are generally owned and operated by people who are relatively new to bonsai...

Yes, I was talking about mostly newbies.

People move on from large trees, particularly, as I'm finding out, as they get older and can no longer move or lift them without threat of injury.

That's exactly my case.
I think about the cost of a good huge pot.
I think about my back.
I think about the XX decades it will take; time that I don't have anymore.
And more and more I like the shohin I have.

 

[JudyB]

I will say that I have noticed an upward trend of shohin and chuchin sized trees, somewhat being driven by the greying of some practitioners I think. But I love a good graceful and feminine style of tree in larger sized trees, and that seems to be very lacking in my view. I think the trend towards large and very masculine trees is very much the main focus these days.

 

[rockm]

Considering that Bald cypress are regularly collected as "huge trunk" no limbs, they are also among the most fast-developing species we use. Consider this BC collected by Guy Guidry -- it is only one of many huge trunks with no initial branching he collected, including the one at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum.

The second photo is of a 250 year old Chinese Elm in the collection of a couple of friends of mine. It's branching has been developed and redeveloped several times. The trunk requires a fork lift or a crane to repot. You can still see the first chop on the trunk, just above the roots where the trunk bends to the left.

 

[Cajunrider]

Yes, I was talking about mostly newbies.




That's exactly my case.
I think about the cost of a good huge pot.
I think about my back.
I think about the XX decades it will take; time that I don't have anymore.
And more and more I like the shohin I have.

I don't have much time left either but some of the big trunks just fell into my lap
I took that back. I meant some of the big trunks just ran into my Root Slayer shovel.

 

[rockm]

Yes, I was talking about mostly newbies.




That's exactly my case.
I think about the cost of a good huge pot.
I think about my back.
I think about the XX decades it will take; time that I don't have anymore.
And more and more I like the shohin I have.

I have begun moving to shohin, but still love big trees. I just bought a monster nine inch trunk Bald Cypress from our friend Cajunrider (who is an excellent seller BTW, very pleased with it). It has no branching. It will require a huge pot which will weigh in around 100 lbs or so with soil. Developing it will take a decade or a little less, but it will provide me hours and hours of pleasure in that time. I have several trees that are over or just under 100 lbs. I can still lift them and carry them. In other words, I still have some time left with them. Don't get me wrong, I also love my shohin trees, but larger trees still hold their appeal. I am very grateful I was foolish enough to invest in those big trees almost 30 years ago. They are returning their dividends now as they become more and more refined.

 

[KikurageOtomo]

I've been watching the way - apparently fashionable - that people doing bonsai get all enthusiastic about big trunks with no branches, no radial roots, no interesting deadwood but...
Large.
Heavy.
Thick.
Some are literally ground trees freshly dug out from the ground, chopped down, and sold immediately.
Of course a big, impressive trunk, can be part of a good bonsai; what I question here is: what about the elegant, the tall, the flared, the literati, the forests, the small delicate flowering bonsai in a beautiful pot?
Nope. Not impressive enough.
I am talking about most new enthusiasts on the Internet groups.
For them, bigger is always better.

At least from the prospective of an American? Older men (the primary demographic of bonsai clubs) are fond of images or totems of strength and resilience. So I think the the approximation of a truly powerful trees presence is something they're very drawn to in bonsai and perhaps this makes them blind to some glaring faults on material. At the end of the day though, a lot of material can become something new altogether given enough time, thought and energy.

 

[Cajunrider]

At least from the prospective of an American? Older men (the primary demographic of bonsai clubs) are fond of images or totems of strength and resilience. So I think the the approximation of a truly powerful trees presence is something they're very drawn to in bonsai and perhaps this makes them blind to some glaring faults on material. At the end of the day though, a lot of material can become something new altogether given enough time, thought and energy.

Not all of us are fixated on totems of strength and resilience. My first design thought on any tree I work with is how I can find a graceful line/shape for the tree be it big or small. I for one will not hesitate to chop away a big part of a trunk if I can see a more graceful shape from a side branch.

 

[rockm]

At least from the prospective of an American? Older men (the primary demographic of bonsai clubs) are fond of images or totems of strength and resilience. So I think the the approximation of a truly powerful trees presence is something they're very drawn to in bonsai and perhaps this makes them blind to some glaring faults on material. At the end of the day though, a lot of material can become something new altogether given enough time, thought and energy.

Well, um, same is true for feminine trees. Women, particularly older women, tend to be drawn to delicate, fussy, or cutesy thin trunked trees. I've seem some skinny trunked trees that are pretty ugly...just sayin...

 

[Cajunrider]

Well, um, same is true for feminine trees. Women, particularly older women, tend to be drawn to delicate, fussy, or cutesy thin trunked trees. I've seem some skinny trunked trees that are pretty ugly...just sayin...

Whoa!!!
Cannon ball across the bow.
*I need to get a six pack of Arbita and a lounge chair for this.*

 

[bonsaichile]

Not all of us are fixated on totems of strength and resilience. My first design thought on any tree I work with is how I can find a graceful line/shape for the tree be it big or small. I for one will not hesitate to chop away a big part of a trunk if I can see a more graceful shape from a side branch.

I understand what you are saying, but generally speaking, American culture is one of "bigger is better." Be it cars (no matter how impractical they can be), houses (damn the environment), guns (who cares about children?), food (and waistlines!), Americans always go for a bigger size. I've been 25 years in this country, and I am still puzzled by this trend. To me, it reflects a fundamental anxiety and an inferiority complex. But that's my personal opinion

 

[KikurageOtomo]

I understand what you are saying, but generally speaking, American culture is one of "bigger is better." Be it cars (no matter how impractical they can be), houses (damn the environment), guns (who cares about children?), food (and waistlines!), Americans always go for a bigger size. I've been 25 years in this country, and I am still puzzled by this trend. To me, it reflects a fundamental anxiety and an inferiority complex. But that's my personal opinion

This was essentially what I was trying to touch on, not trying to generalize anybody. But ultimately there are patterns one can see from miles away. And well, if the shoe fits.....

 

[Cajunrider]

I understand what you are saying, but generally speaking, American culture is one of "bigger is better." Be it cars (no matter how impractical they can be), houses (damn the environment), guns (who cares about children?), food (and waistlines!), Americans always go for a bigger size. I've been 25 years in this country, and I am still puzzled by this trend. To me, it reflects a fundamental anxiety and an inferiority complex. But that's my personal opinion

Well. I didn't grow up in the US either. However, my time in this country almost doubles that of yours. I don't see the anxiety and inferiority complex. I see practical reasons for many of the behaviors. I somewhat actually see the nose down on Americans as a sign of inferiority complex.

 

[rockm]

I understand what you are saying, but generally speaking, American culture is one of "bigger is better." Be it cars (no matter how impractical they can be), houses (damn the environment), guns (who cares about children?), food (and waistlines!), Americans always go for a bigger size. I've been 25 years in this country, and I am still puzzled by this trend. To me, it reflects a fundamental anxiety and an inferiority complex. But that's my personal opinion

That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're seeing and it's too bad you assume the worst about your fellow Americans. While there are certainly those who are overcompensating, stupid, or both, the reason for "supersized" is that we have the freakin room to do it in--with miles to spare. Hell, it takes TWO DAYS to drive across Texas at 75 mph--800 miles north to south, 775 east to west (and would you rather be crammed into a Subaru or Volvo, or a roomy Caddy, or GMC full size pickup while doing it) BTW England is only 600 miles long from its Southern Coast to Scotland's North Coast....We are a country full of people who couldn't and wouldn't be fenced in within other countries. A lot of us, or our ancestors, were thrown out of those countries because we/they saw things differently. They wanted different things or disagreed profoundly with the idiots running their home countries. Others were brought here against their will, or out of dire circumstance, to live in poverty and subjugation, who also want better.

That supersize attitude is also a product of optimism. Americans are irritatingly optimistic to Europeans, etc. Maybe so, but that optimism lead to us mostly leading the free world, after we fueled the defeat of the greatest oppressors the world has ever seen. Without the U.S. big, brawny sprawling manufacturing and material production in the Second World War (and its substantial support in re-building), Europe and Asia wouldn't be where they are now.

 

[bonsaichile]

Well. I didn't grow up in the US either. However, my time in this country almost doubles that of yours. I don't see the anxiety and inferiority complex. I see practical reasons for many of the behaviors. I somewhat actually see the nose down on Americans as a sign of inferiority complex.

The bravado, toxic masculinity, love of guns... to me, those are all signs of a deeply felt inferiority. But don't get me wrong, we have our own flaws where I come from and there is a reason I never went back.