Wild Apple Collected

[rockm]

'If you want to waste extra 2 years on a tree, by all means do it your way. But as I said ...

- higher root to trunk ratio = less die back
- higher root to trunk ratio = higher chances of survival
- single chop = less stress to the tree
- single chop = safer (less risk)
- single chop = faster development
- I believe tree is strongest at initial collection time, stronger than 2 years after in a pot so give it the worst at this time and not later."

"Please tell me...of the six that I listed above...which ones are (in your opinion) wrong assumptions?"

I'd say "how can you make such conclusions in a year?" I mean, you haven't even had time to TRY what has been suggested with a successive chops over time. You have no practical experience in doing so, yet feel free to call those who have actually done it "foolish." Forgive me, but that seems a lot like the "don't do it" criticism you have leveled at others.

 

[Poink88]

You've listed hypotheses...they are far from proven. The one time I chopped too aggressively at collection, I only got sprouts from the base of a very promising stump...lesson learned.

Good enough and sorry. BTW, you know that there are trees that are doomed to fail from the very beginning. Sometimes there is nothing you could have done to change the outcome.

As I said, I must be very lucky then (and I thank God for that). So far 73 collected trees treated this way (7 casualties ) the rest (66) don't have any problem.

 

[Poink88]

...that seems a lot like the "don't do it" criticism you have leveled at others.

I am not telling anyone to NOT do it another way...I am only showing an option. They can throw their tree to the fire if they want to (though I hope they won't).

And yes, that is my personal take. If another method is longer and riskier (as I see it)...TO ME (for me) to do that is foolish.

 

[rockm]

"That link shows exactly what I do so I am confused what your point is. They do not show leaving 8" stub did they?"

OK, read through here:

http://www.cajunbonsai.com/sarahcypresspage.htm

The pertinent part (forgive me Gary):
"The Initial Design

I decided to do the initial design of the bonsai the day after Sarah was born. On July 20, 1994, the day after Sarah's birth, the initial design was done. The height of the initial cut to adjust the height of the tree was made at collecting, which allowed for the selection of the perfect leader. Chosen for the leader was a branch which popped straight up on the initial cut and was
30 degrees off center of the chosen front, left side. Left side of center was chosen to match the very slight movement of the truck line."

 

[Poink88]

"That link shows exactly what I do so I am confused what your point is. They do not show leaving 8" stub did they?"

OK, read through here:

http://www.cajunbonsai.com/sarahcypresspage.htm

The pertinent part (forgive me Gary):
"The Initial Design

I decided to do the initial design of the bonsai the day after Sarah was born. On July 20, 1994, the day after Sarah's birth, the initial design was done. The height of the initial cut to adjust the height of the tree was made at collecting, which allowed for the selection of the perfect leader. Chosen for the leader was a branch which popped straight up on the initial cut and was
30 degrees off center of the chosen front, left side. Left side of center was chosen to match the very slight movement of the truck line."

Again, what is your point?

Wow you guys are just throwing everything including the kitchen sink LOL.

If you need a part of the tree...keep it. All I said is chop and remove what you do not need or plan to remove later. If you are not sure, keep it. Simple enough?

 

[mcpesq817]

Good enough and sorry. BTW, you know that there are trees that are doomed to fail from the very beginning. Sometimes there is nothing you could have done to change the outcome.

Some may be doomed to fail from the very beginning, but why increase the odds of that happening?

 

[Poink88]

Some may be doomed to fail from the very beginning, but why increase the odds of that happening?

Who said doing that?

 

[rockm]

"Again, what is your point?

Wow you guys are just throwing everything including the kitchen sink LOL."

Uh, no. That's not really what's happening.

The article -- written by a long-time collector--clearly advocates topping new material ABOVE the final height, leaving a substantial UNEEDED portion of the trunk to be chopped at a later date. That allows a variety of new leader options to pop up on what might be removed in haste when using your "chop immediately to bonsai size" approach. That "uneeded" portion allows a wider selection of new buds from which a "perfectly placed" one can be chosen.

"If you need a part of the tree...keep it. All I said is chop and remove what you do not need or plan to remove later. If you are not sure, keep it. Simple enough?"

This sidestep isn't really what you've been saying...LOL indeed.

 

[Poink88]

"If you need a part of the tree...keep it. All I said is chop and remove what you do not need or plan to remove later. If you are not sure, keep it. Simple enough?"

This sidestep isn't really what you've been saying...LOL indeed.

Please show me where that is not what I've been saying. And I know you guys would team up, read ALL my posts and find it if it really exists.

 

[mcpesq817]

Methinks Dario is backtracking... Not to mention, you were saying to cut at the height of the final chop, under the assumption that there will be zero dieback and that new growth will come out perfectly at the chop site.

I guess he can be aggressive with his trees and cavalier about the advice he gives, given that he collected over 70 trees in the past year. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I think for folks that collect only a few each year, I'm sure they would prefer a more cautious approach.

 

[Poink88]

Mike...you seem to recall every post I made, please show me where I am back tracking.

I think you guys read what I post and put your preconceived meaning to it. Not what I meant but what you want to read. Sad.

 

[catfish chapstick]

it's my opinion that collecting a tree is not a success until a few years have gone by. like four years or so. when i first started collecting i made a bad habit of doing too much too soon. over the past six years or so i have learned to slow down. it's true what they sat about patience only it takes time just to realize that.

 

[mcpesq817]

Mike...you seem to recall every post I made, please show me where I am back tracking.

I think you guys read what I post and put your preconceived meaning to it. Not what I meant but what you want to read. Sad.

How about you re-read your own words and figure things out? In the past I've cut and pasted what you wrote and you didn't have a response. I have more important things to do with my time than research your posts.

 

[Poink88]

How about you re-read your own words and figure things out? In the past I've cut and pasted what you wrote and you didn't have a response. I have more important things to do with my time than research your posts.

Sure, I'll do that. LOL

I bet there are folks out there who are afraid to talk (decide to lurk instead) because of what they see I have to go through. This environment is toxic instead of inviting and nurturing for creative thinking for better bonsai.

Good discussion though...and a perfect opportunity to share my "different" idea. Hopefully, someone pick up something good from all this (from yours and/or mine). Thanks!

 

[mcpesq817]

Sure, I'll do that. LOL

I bet there are folks out there who are afraid to talk (decide to lurk instead) because of what they see I have to go through. This environment is toxic instead of inviting and nurturing for creative thinking for better bonsai.

Good discussion though...and a perfect opportunity to share my "different" idea. Hopefully, someone pick up something good from all this (from yours and/or mine). Thanks!

Cheers!

 

[coh]

Dario,

Someone posted an interesting comment about the potential difference in the way shrubs (like boxwood) react to chops/collection compared to trees. That got me thinking a bit. Out of the 73 (or whatever the number was) plants you collected, how many were "shrubs" like boxwood, azaela, etc and how many were actual trees? And have you noticed any difference in how they've responded during the first year?

I think people in general need to be careful when making blanket statements...as different approaches most likely work best for different species (and different climates as well).

Chris

 

[rockm]

"bet there are folks out there who are afraid to talk (decide to lurk instead) because of what they see I have to go through. This environment is toxic instead of inviting and nurturing for creative thinking for better bonsai."

 

[JudyB]

(and different climates as well).

I think that this is a very important point. What may work for a long and hot growing season, and more importantly, a mild dormant season, will not be the same at all as in a more northern- colder, shorter season climate.

 

[Poink88]

Chris,

Interesting.

Tree is defined (one way) as a plant where you can walk straight under it's canopy (please don't ask me where I got that definition LOL). Some bushes can grow to be a tree like some yaupon variety so I am not sure if I should count those.

I only collected an apple and numerous elm (more than a dozen). Elm however is not your average tree though, in that it is very forgiving and takes abuse well. Yaupon (almost 2 dozen) is similar. However, most of my purchased trees (another 3 dozen?) were treated the same (stumped) and responded even better (of course) since they have better root system.

Temperature and location of course have some bearing as well.

Some trees back bud well...some don't. Same is true with shrubs. Their response to chopping is possibly better gauged that way than tree vs shrub. JMHO.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Dario,

Someone posted an interesting comment about the potential difference in the way shrubs (like boxwood) react to chops/collection compared to trees. That got me thinking a bit. Out of the 73 (or whatever the number was) plants you collected, how many were "shrubs" like boxwood, azaela, etc and how many were actual trees? And have you noticed any difference in how they've responded during the first year?

I think people in general need to be careful when making blanket statements...as different approaches most likely work best for different species (and different climates as well).

Chris

people should say things to this effect: "this was my experience and here are my results, etc" blanket statements are often debatable. .

(statements, advice, and experiences are all fine and well and it only turns "toxic" when someone calls another persons advice "foolish". If that is the language you prefer to use then how can you be surprised at the direction things take.)