Wild Apple Collected

[frozenlarch]

First post here, looking for some help.

I've had my eye on a Wild Apple growing on the back 40 of my neighbors property for a few years now. I knew he had planned to start logging back there within the next couple weeks, so I figured now was my chance to get the ol' girl before she got plowed over. I asked him about it, and sure enough there was absolutely no issue with me digging it up.

I got very lucky with this tree... It was growing in about 5" of muck soil, on top of a dense rock bed. The root system is extremely compact (compared to what I am used to around here) and well on it's way towards development.

My question, and the only real problem I'm having, is how far back to trim the 30x30 inch root spread. I had thought about constructing a grow box, and just leaving the tree to its own devices for a year or two, but if i could get away with trimming the root ball back a bit, it would save me a major headache (and backache)

Also curious if I should trim the suckers now, or wait until the tree heals up before I do any "branch" removal.

Thanks in advance!
FL

 

[frozenlarch]

Update: Got her set up in a temporary containment unit... Had just enough scrap 1x4 laying around to make it work. Going to hit the lumber yard tomorrow for some cedar 1x6 to construct something slightly more permanent.
It took a little more root pruning than I would have liked (I always get nervous cutting back thick roots) but the box is quite literally filled with feeders, so I think she'll be alright.

I also started slowly knocking back the suckers... The way they were branching out from the trunk, I was concerned about reverse taper, but there is none to be seen. Will finish digging them out tomorrow once it's planted and thoroughly watered in.





Really hoping for the best with this tree... By far the largest I've had in my care.

FL

 

[Poink88]

Apple roots so fast, you shouldn't have any problem even if you got only little roots. It looks too long to me, I would have chopped it less than half that height. I would have also left the suckers at the trunk base (remove the ones on the roots). The ones on the base will help build the girth...no reverse taper will happen since it is at the bottom.

Good luck!

 

[frozenlarch]

Apple roots so fast, you shouldn't have any problem even if you got only little roots. It looks too long to me, I would have chopped it less than half that height. I would have also left the suckers at the trunk base (remove the ones on the roots). The ones on the base will help build the girth...no reverse taper will happen since it is at the bottom.

Good luck!

I too am thinking about a 50-60% reduction in height, just wasn't sure how far I should go with it at the moment. Given the stress it's under I was concerned if I cut back too far I'd risk losing the tree.

With the way she shot out those suckers, I doubt it would be an issue for me to re-grow them. (My reasoning for complete removal was to focus all the energy up the trunk for back-budding... Though I'm sure a lack of patience with the pruners probably had something to do with it)

Thank you for the reply.

 

[Poink88]

I'll let you know that others will disagree with what I am saying so please take it with a grain of salt. I believe in...

- Higher root to trunk ratio. (So I chop as low as possible.)
- Grow where you want the shoots not above it. (same as above)
- Let suckers at base grow to build girth. (I believe all leaves are good. They contribute to the tree no matter where they are even the suckers as long as they are on the tree itself.)

Weigh it and proceed at your own risk. (not so comforting isn't it? - sorry)

 

[JudyB]

Hi Frozenlarch, just wanted to say, welcome to the forum. Nice collection, I'll be interested to see what you do with it.

Just remember that when you reduce roots on the tree, that is is possible to do a sort of matched reduction to the top at the same time. If you already have growth on the top, but not much on the bottom, you may want to wait a season to chop again, as it's already expended energy popping that growth out. I agree that it will want to be reduced further, just be cautious, as collected trees need to be treated with care during their recovery time. Which can be a couple years....
Good luck!

 

[rockm]

Apple is an extremely vigorous tree and can take an enormous amount of abuse.

Chopping a tree to its final planned "bonsai" height is shortsighted and can lead to compromise in final design. Allowing some extra height can allow you to more precisely place a new leader. Another six or eight inches above the final planned height can give you more options. I know Dario is a bit fanatical about this, but having worked with collected trees, including apple, over the years, I have learned that hedging the bet on where a new shoot will appear is only a good thing. An additional six to eight inches isn't going to make that much of a difference on the load on the roots, especially on a species as strong as apples.

Not all new growth is good. Root suckers are not good. Since this species is so vigorous, you don't need them for anything. I would eliminate ALL the suckers on the nebari root surface as you have apparently done. Apple are notorious for producing "water sprout" growth that can draw an enormous amount of energy from other more desirable growth. The suckers on the root surface will take energy away from where you want them on the main trunk. If you have suckers on the main trunk, leave them. They will draw energy to the main trunk where it belongs.

 

[catfish chapstick]

train for multiple leaders then in the future you can select the one you prefer

 

[Poink88]

There you go...multiple views, all valid IMHO and have their own advantage & disadvantage. Now you choose the path you want to follow. Which one is best, you/we may never know.

 

[rockm]

One more thing -- it is important to bury the nebari (root base) under at least an inch of soil for recently-collected trees. Covering it up prevents it from drying out and dying back. Once the plant is established and growing well in a year or so, you can begin uncovering the nebari if you want.

 

[mcpesq817]

I collected an old apple a year or so ago, and did leave on an extra length of trunk because I figured that like most collected deciduous material, there would be dieback. Sure enough, I'm glad I left on a good 8" or so of extra trunk because there was dieback. Your tree also has a lot of deadwood on it already, so I would be a bit cautious before thinking that you can accurately predict where the tree will sprout from.

I'd also remove the suckers as rockm suggested. Suckers pull an inordinate amount of energy from the tree, and at this point, your main goal is to have the trunk survive. You can worry about thickening the base later.

I've disagreed with Dario's approach on chopping to the projected height on deciduous trees on many threads - his advice goes against what experienced collectors would tell you. I don't think you should expect most temperate deciduous material that is not shrub-like (e.g., boxwoods and azaleas) to have zero dieback and sprout right at the chop. Experienced collectors will tell you to leave extra lengths for eventual dieback. I wouldn't classify myself as an experienced collector, but having collected some deciduous material over the years, I've noticed that you do tend to get dieback at the chop site.

 

[Poink88]

And as I posted before...I think you probably get die back because you keep long trunks (see my sig line about causing what you are avoiding ). I never experienced it so I cannot relate.

Suckers pulling energy is another I do not accept. Leaves generate energy...they do not pull anything away! I see them as sacrificial branches...not suckers.

Yes, we disagree but thanks for keeping it civil.

I agree about covering the nebari...something I have to keep checking myself on since it is nice to see/display them.

 

[frozenlarch]

I think here lies my problem with this tree... I'm so accustomed to working with smaller Shohin Tamarack, that I'm having a difficult time envisioning a future for this larger, bare naked stump. The Larch that I collect and work with all have some sort of predefined style, or character that I try to accentuate. With this, I seem to lack any foresight.

As any artist knows, a blank slate often leaves an overwhelmingly infinite number of possibilities, and choosing a direction can be challenging. Hopefully some doors will open once it recovers.

Thank you again for the replies.

 

[Poink88]

BTW, I also believe the tree is strongest at collection time (if the timing is right). If you have to abuse it...that is the time and do it once! In my mind, no need to do a chop and plan on coming back and do it again a year or 2 later. To me, that is plain foolish (sorry).

Apple in my experience is very apically dominant. It loves to throw 1 or 2 shoots at the tips (and maybe some suckers) but not in between for some reason. Another reason I would chop it at the right location now.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[rockm]

"I'm so accustomed to working with smaller Shohin Tamarack, that I'm having a difficult time envisioning a future for this larger, bare naked stump."

You have to step back a bit and not look at the tree as a stump. Apples can be made into rugged, carved trees with deadwood. You can force taper and grace into the lump of wood with carving and regrowing an apex. Your tree has an extremely fine nebari to start with. Start there and work your way up, BUT don't make any concrete plans or do any other work on it at this point. It's far too early for that. Get the tree healthy and growinf for a couple of years. In that time look for examples of old rugged trees. Nick Lenz's book "Bonsai From the Wild" covers collected apples extensively


"Suckers pulling energy is another I do not accept. Leaves generate energy...they do not pull anything away! I see them as sacrificial branches...not suckers."

OK, then it's the LEAVES ON THE SUCKERS and where the suckering growth IS LOCATED. Whether you accept it or not, location of growth has everything to do with how a tree grows. The location of strong vs weak growth is what drives bonsai techniques. Strong growth in the wrong location has to be be controlled lest it dominate lesser growth. Suckering growth is strong growth...

Keep growing that apple and it may dawn on you that suckers aren't great...

 

[catfish chapstick]

suckers are for suckers

"Keep growing that apple and it may dawn on you that suckers aren't great..."

suckers annoy me so i remove them. for better or worse. i don't believe that a few suckers will make much difference either way but an abundance of suckers will. my 2 cents

 

[rockm]

"To me, that is plain foolish (sorry)."

So much for civility. Far from being foolish, it is an ENTIRE SCHOOL OF BONSAI, founded on this practice. Lignan clip and grow methods are based on a series of trunk chops and branch chops to induce movement, strategically based on how and where new buds emerge from the last chop.

Repeated chops to trunks and branches are completely necessary to induce good taper and movement and have been used, literally, for centuries, by Japanese and Chinese bonsaiists. I guess "foolish" is a relative term...

 

[Poink88]

"To me, that is plain foolish (sorry)."

So much for civility. Far from being foolish, it is an ENTIRE SCHOOL OF BONSAI, founded on this practice. Lignan clip and grow methods are based on a series of trunk chops and branch chops to induce movement, strategically based on how and where new buds emerge from the last chop.

Repeated chops to trunks and branches are completely necessary to induce good taper and movement and have been used, literally, for centuries, by Japanese and Chinese bonsaiists. I guess "foolish" is a relative term...

Lignan is not the same as you are doing though. Cutting to shorten a branch/trunk to create taper is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from completely REMOVING it (and more ). Sorry.

 

[frozenlarch]

"To me, that is plain foolish (sorry)."

So much for civility. Far from being foolish, it is an ENTIRE SCHOOL OF BONSAI, founded on this practice. Lignan clip and grow methods are based on a series of trunk chops and branch chops to induce movement, strategically based on how and where new buds emerge from the last chop.

Repeated chops to trunks and branches are completely necessary to induce good taper and movement and have been used, literally, for centuries, by Japanese and Chinese bonsaiists. I guess "foolish" is a relative term...

I am going to assume what Mr Poink means, is that it would be redundant to stress the tree with two chops, when a single cut to the desired height would yield the same results.

Aside from opening up the possibility for different back-budding locations, no movement would be achieved by this planned "double chop."

 

[catfish chapstick]

I am going to assume what Mr Poink means, is that it would be redundant to stress the tree with two chops, when a single cut to the desired height would yield the same results.

Aside from opening up the possibility for different back-budding locations, no movement would be achieved by this planned "double chop."

there's nothing wrong with a double chop, or a triple chop, or even more chops... let the tree tell you what to do and be patient.