Why japanese black pine?

[Txhorticulture]

Let me say i am new to bonsai, not trying to disrespect or offend.... But why is japanese black pine such a popular bonsai species? As far as ornamental trees go, it has nice dark green needles i guess, but they're long straight needles. It's just not that good lookimg of a tree to me.

I love pines, beautiful trees, but there are what almost 150 different species of pines. If it's japanese origin that has made it popular, P. Parviflora is smaller and in my opinion prettier.... Austrian black pine has same dark foliage, but smaller needles.

Just wondering...

 

[bonsairxmd]

I like the look of JWP better as well but they do not do well where I live (or where you live) They have a less hardy root system and thus are often grafted on JBP roots (often poorly here in the U.S.) They grow slowly. They are very expensive. Take years to develop flakey bark like JBP. Just less hardy in general than JBP. One can also get very good needle length reduction on JBP with the correct techniques. JBP grow relatively fast, are drought tolerant, very hardy, and can take our summer heat.

I'm sure the pine experts on here can elaborate further......

 

[Nybonsai12]

Who doesn't like a nice JBP? but seriously aside from looks that most find appealing, it's because of its positive bonsai traits. Responds to bonsai techniques well, good bark etc.

 

[Vance Wood]

The Caviar of bonsai if you think that through---ever had caviar?

 

[garywood]

Let me say i am new to bonsai, not trying to disrespect or offend.... But why is japanese black pine such a popular bonsai species? As far as ornamental trees go, it has nice dark green needles i guess, but they're long straight needles. It's just not that good lookimg of a tree to me.

I love pines, beautiful trees, but there are what almost 150 different species of pines. If it's japanese origin that has made it popular, P. Parviflora is smaller and in my opinion prettier.... Austrian black pine has same dark foliage, but smaller needles.

Just wondering...

Tex, like you say, there are multiple species of pine. There are many scales to judge how they "preform" as bonsai. Growth, needle length, needle straightness, hardiness, ease of cultivation, size of buds, how easily they back bud or ramify and the list goes on and on. It just so happens that JBP offers the most desirable characteristics that challenges the growers ability. Good JBP just don't happen! As you progress on your bonsai journey, things that are cloudy now will clear up, Have fun!

 

[markyscott]

I can tell you why YOU'RE probably going to like it.

- You live in zone 8b. JBP is native to you're horticultural zone. In fact, it is native to zone 10.
- The list of classic pines that won't do well or will grow with difficulty in zone 8b and 9 is long. Mugo, Scots, Ponderosa, Japanese White Pine, Austrian, etc. are unproven in our area. I know people who keep ponderosa and JWP as far south as zone 8a, but I don't know anyone who has successfully grown any further south. I know many (including me) who have tried.
- The list of pines native to our area is short and somewhat unproven as bonsai. Loblolly, Slash, Longleaf, and Shortleaf. I think loblolly could be successful. Their needles reduce well and they back bud readily. Don't take to repotting well though. I've seen one slash pine as a bonsai - it looks like that could work as well.
- The list of native North American pines that could adapt to our zone is also short. Maybe Monterey? Virginia?

So you see, although there are many species of pine out there, there are not many that will grow where you live. And many of the remaining have a great deal to be worked out before we can get reliable and reproducible results. JBP grows reliably well in the Texas heat. It enjoys full sun, warm summers, and a long growing season - all of which we have in plenty. It's care and maintenance is well known and timing for maintenance in our area is well understood.

Scott

 

[jeanluc83]

I think you need to start looking at trees differently. You seem to be stuck on the traits of full size trees. The entire art of bonsai is built on the fact that we can manipulate the way trees normally grow. The extent that we can manipulate them depends on the species. Some trees respond the way we want them to better than others. Black pine is one of them.

Native species are a some what uncharted territory. There are people working with them but there just isn't the body of knowledge that there is with JBP. I am working with pitch pine. I think it is a fantastic species but it doesn't necessarily follow the rules of other pines. We need more people working with native species so that bonsai can grow in this country.

 

[Anthony]

If you look into pines, you will find a few that do have short needles in the Mexican zone crossing over to the US.

Luckily, we can grow J.B.pines, and with time enjoy the amazing bark, that painting effect seen in Chinese work, and see the trees our grandfathers grew up with in China.

We also have the Caribbean/Honduran pine which is new territory, and has great bark.
Look around I am sure you will find seed of short needled pines.
Good Morning
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

As mentioned...it is used widely in Japan and since it is adaptable here in the US, it is normally used because of the knowledge base on it. Not to mention all the nice show pictures available. They do get to you.

It also seems fairly easy to propagate and has lots of good traits for bonsai so it will take a long time to dislodge it from it's throne (if ever).

I have a few starter JBP but I am hunting for Pinyon/Pinion/Pinon pine. It has good characteristics and should grow well here in Austin, TX. Assume (just for discussions sake) that it proves as superior material than JBP here in TX, it may still not affect the JBP as preferred by most in the country or worldwide.

 

[Vance Wood]

As mentioned...it is used widely in Japan and since it is adaptable here in the US, it is normally used because of the knowledge base on it. Not to mention all the nice show pictures available. They do get to you.

It also seems fairly easy to propagate and has lots of good traits for bonsai so it will take a long time to dislodge it from it's throne (if ever).

I have a few starter JBP but I am hunting for Pinyon/Pinion/Pinon pine. It has good characteristics and should grow well here in Austin, TX. Assume (just for discussions sake) that it proves as superior material than JBP here in TX, it may still not affect the JBP as preferred by most in the country or worldwide.

Good luck on the Pinyon, if you find it available somewhere let me know. I do know that last year when my wife and I were at The Grand Canon they had some planted in the visitors center main garden. I am assuming that these trees were brought in and not dug out of the park. They had wire cages around them so as to keep them from being disturbed. Point being they have to be available somewhere.

 

[Poink88]

Good luck on the Pinyon, if you find it available somewhere let me know.

I've read they are prolific here in TX...I just need to find one ranch that have it.

Honestly, I am not even trying but I am sure I can find it if I try hard. I have contacts down south who can scout for me. I will keep you posted once I found some.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

In addition to what others have mentioned already, what I like about JBP is that younger ones I've worked on seem to be almost idiot proof. Mine have endured an incredible amount of torture, yet they're still alive and well. I did a crazy bend this year one one pine; the branch is almost broken completely off, but it's still green and alive. I intentionally broke it to make the sharp bend.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Like pinyons?!

Interested in pinyons for bonsai poink? They are my favorite trees the first picture is my pinus johannis (a rare mexican pinyon) the tree like most pinyons is slow growing this one is about 16 years old. The long needled seedling is an endangered species of pinyon also from Mexico obviously, pinus maximartinezii or big cone pinyon.

The last seedling is not a pinyon but is mexican (pinus patula) despite very long drooping needles it would make a very nice bonsai i think - in my opinion patula is the most attractive species of pine (probably only zone 8b, 9a hardy)

Poink if you want to find pinyons in texas i can tell you where to find pinus remota, the papershell pinyon. I've also seen p. Edulis in texas in the Guadalupe mountains.

 

[M. Frary]

The Caviar of bonsai if you think that through---ever had caviar?

Mmmmm. Salty fish eggs!

 

[Txhorticulture]

And Vance

I'm sure the pines you saw were pinus edulis and even more sure they were NOT dug out of the park. But you're point is well taken it is not easy to purchase one that has attained much size. If smaller ones are ok for you i can think of several nurseries that have small one gallon plants.

Here are some pictures i took of pinus remota in texas several years ago. I know it was several years ago because my truck doesn't look that nice anymore. Lol. Beautiful trees. Realistically the only way to get one would be collection. But I know where they are

 

[Poink88]

Poink if you want to find pinyons in texas i can tell you where to find pinus remota, the papershell pinyon. I've also seen p. Edulis in texas in the Guadalupe mountains.

Interested is an under statement. LOL I want to collect older stock though...I can't/won't start from seedlings.

PM me for details please. Thank you.

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm sure the pines you saw were pinus edulis and even more sure they were NOT dug out of the park. But you're point is well taken it is not easy to purchase one that has attained much size. If smaller ones are ok for you i can think of several nurseries that have small one gallon plants.

Here are some pictures i took of pinus remota in texas several years ago. I know it was several years ago because my truck doesn't look that nice anymore. Lol. Beautiful trees. Realistically the only way to get one would be collection. But I know where they are

Small ones in one gallon containers would not be a no no.

 

[Adair M]

As others have mentioned, JBP is very responsive, if not THE most responsive to bonsai techniques. It is very tolerant of potting, and living in a container, being wired, it's reasonably flexible, yet the branches will "set" in place, it has two flushes of growth per year, the needles can be shortened to whatever length you want, it grafts easily, it backbuds, you can develop short internodes, you can grow it to virtually any style, it has great bark, it will "look old" at a younger age than other species, it has dark green needles, it has compact clusters of needles, the needles are straight, it grows quickly if you let it, it will stay small if you train it, it builds "trunk" quicker than most other species.

Japanese Black Pine is the "King" of bonsai.

All other pines are compared to JBP. Master JBP, and you then have a basis for working on other pines. Some techniques we do for JBP are not appropriate for the others, but you learn which techniques are and and which are not.

I discuss JBP extensively on my thread "What's it like to attend Intensive classes".

Here's a better picture or two of the JBP that is my avatar:

 

[Adair M]

Some other JBP showing it's versatility.

And it IS possible to find them at Home Depot and ordinary garden centers. At least it is in Atlanta. Of course, bonsai shops will have them, too. As well as ebay and other on-line vendors.

There are a few nurseries in California and Oregon who field grow JBP specificly for development into bonsai. These cost more because they've been pruned at a young age in such a way as to keep lower branches, develop taper, and keep foliage close to the trunk.

The material available at HomeDepot, Lowe's, and garden centers are usually taller, ganglier stock. Not to say they can't be made into bonsai, it just takes longer. It's possible to find treasures!

 

[Txhorticulture]

Nurseries

Hey Vance las pillatas has one gallon size

http://www.laspilitas.com/nature-of-california/plants/pinus-edulis

Forestfarm has tube size of edulis and single needle pinyon (monophylla). http://www.forestfarm.com/product.php?id=3457

I've ordered from forest farm many times. Awesome selection of plants and ray (owner) fantastic guy very knowledgeable.