Why is there so much poor information about bonsai on the Internet?

[Bonsai Nut]

I was thinking more along the lines of the GIA (for diamond certification). Ever wonder why the clearest, most colorless diamond in the world is called a "D" grade color? It's because before the GIA there were so many people calling diamonds "A", "B" or "C" grade - and no one knew what it meant so everyone called their diamonds "A" grade. The industry created the GIA to bring universal standards to the trade - and clear up the confusion (and rampant hucksterism) that was damaging the trade.

Kinda like how every bonsai on eBay is called a "specimen". I don't even know that that term MEANS - and yet people seem to feel it relates (somehow) to the value of the tree they are buying.

 

[Vance Wood]

I was thinking more along the lines of the GIA (for diamond certification). Ever wonder why the clearest, most colorless diamond in the world is called a "D" grade color? It's because before the GIA there were so many people calling diamonds "A", "B" or "C" grade - and no one knew what it meant so everyone called their diamonds "A" grade. The industry created the GIA to bring universal standards to the trade - and clear up the confusion (and rampant hucksterism) that was damaging the trade.

Kinda like how every bonsai on eBay is called a "specimen". I don't even know that that term MEANS - and yet people seem to feel it relates (somehow) to the value of the tree they are buying.

Just look at it like this: If you go to a doctor with some sort of problem he may ask you for a specimen----and I know you know what that is.

As to the diamond thing: It is my understanding that there are so many diamonds in the world if someone did not regulate and control them the market would be flooded with diamonds and the value of the market would plumet.

 

[Vance Wood]

Very true on all points! It leads towards the old pay our dues or your out of business route that is abused in many venues. I wonder how many practises that are popular these days in Bonsai culture that would have been "Verbotten" 30 to 100 years ago? Regulations thwart change and lead to dormancy in most aspects of life as well as art.

ed

I can tell you that this is true. I was vilified for years because I insisted on using Mugo Pines. My root development box was also an item of ridicule and my adherence to summer re-potting for many species of tree is in some schools looked down on. But for the fact that I have been free to speak and teach people are now growing Mugos, using screened boxes and re-potting in summer. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

As to the diamond thing: It is my understanding that there are so many diamonds in the world if someone did not regulate and control them the market would be flooded with diamonds and the value of the market would plumet.

that is more to maintain a market value for the stones.... BNut was referring to standardizing the grading system used to grade diamonds (which is centralized etc) ... usually for small things like bonsai... this kind of stuff turns out bad.... i can agree with that... but it would certainly be nice if it were truly feasible....

and +1 to Vance's comments regarding why regulations can be bad....

 

[Smoke]

I can tell you that this is true. I was vilified for years because I insisted on using Mugo Pines. My root development box was also an item of ridicule and my adherence to summer re-potting for many species of tree is in some schools looked down on. But for the fact that I have been free to speak and teach people are now growing Mugos, using screened boxes and re-potting in summer. Take it for what it's worth.

I am not sure which class of bonsai artists you speak of, but I don't think you were vilified for using mugo pines, I think it more likely that you were vilified for not digging mugo pines from the mountains. The Europeans have been using mugo pines from the mountains for many decades and no one vilifies those trees. Nursery can mugos...different story.

 

[Vance Wood]

I am not sure which class of bonsai artists you speak of, but I don't think you were vilified for using mugo pines, I think it more likely that you were vilified for not digging mugo pines from the mountains. The Europeans have been using mugo pines from the mountains for many decades and no one vilifies those trees. Nursery can mugos...different story.

I have been using Mugos for bonsai a lot longer than any of the publications about bonsai have been around.

 

[Smoke]

I have been using Mugos for bonsai a lot longer than any of the publications about bonsai have been around.

How long you have used them is not the point. Some of the best trees in the world are those swiss pines dug from the mountains. Insisting a person can make anything other than mediocer bonsai from a nursery can mugo is fodder for vilification.

insisting otherwise is like ....more fodder for the vilification. kinda like a catch 22 huh.....

 

[Vance Wood]

How long you have used them is not the point. Some of the best trees in the world are those swiss pines dug from the mountains. Insisting a person can make anything other than mediocer bonsai from a nursery can mugo is fodder for vilification.

insisting otherwise is like ....more fodder for the vilification. kinda like a catch 22 huh.....

I never argued that point, the fact remained that here in the US of A people condemned the tree for many decades, and before the Internet no one knew of the European use of Mugos. I would like, incidentally, to know how far back that school goes? If you want to call my trees fodder and that makes you happy then go for it. What purpose does that serve anyway? If I could collect Mugo I would.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Well... I've seen some nice mugos, but I haven't seen any nice arborvitae You want food for fodder that's a better one.

 

[rockm]

"but I haven't seen any nice arborvitae"

Try searching on Eastern White Cedar bonsai...

BTW, the Internet's promise of unfettered "freedom of speech" is simple hype projected by those wiht the best command over its resources. The internet doesn't provide "free speech"or even support it. It mostly supports those who know best how to manipulate it, have the money for a computer and a fast connection. That's pretty classist if you ask me. Those who can't afford machines or don't know how to access the Internet are stifled --not by the governmetn, but by technology (which is worse?)

 

[Klytus]

Bought a nice Himalayan white pine,looking forward to the new laid-back Bonsai styles and banana like cones.

 

[Goon Salo]

im gonna start calling you Klytus the Visionary

Bought a nice Himalayan white pine,looking forward to the new laid-back Bonsai styles and banana like cones.

 

[stacy allen muse]

I'm thinking of starting to sell bonsai grown upside down like those hanging tomato pots everyone seems to have on their front porch now a days... They will be very, very "Rare", and even though I haven't even started them, they are already "Specimens". I saw a perfect Yamadori seedling something or another, growing like a weed in my front yard, which I think once it is collected and glued into the pot it will do just fine. I think a resonable price for such a treasured fine, would be well worth $90 to a $100 dollars.

 

[grouper52]

I think there are several factors at work.

First, the free-for-all that is the internet and e-commerce.

Second, the commoditization of every last thing on earth.

Third, the effort by some to make this a more "popular" art/hobby through various forms of promotion.

Fourth, the old adage - "90% of everything is crap."

Fifth, Samsara.

Six, masochism: Why in the world would you want to inflict on yourself the results of a Google search for some subject you love? Just stay here at home and enjoy BNut!

 

[DaveV]

I agree with the first three. The second is very true. I thought I was the only one that made this observation.

 

[Jason]

I'm thinking of starting to sell bonsai grown upside down like those hanging tomato pots everyone seems to have on their front porch now a days... They will be very, very "Rare", and even though I haven't even started them, they are already "Specimens". I saw a perfect Yamadori seedling something or another, growing like a weed in my front yard, which I think once it is collected and glued into the pot it will do just fine. I think a resonable price for such a treasured fine, would be well worth $90 to a $100 dollars.

I'll give you 110$ if you call it a collectors item.

 

[Bill S]

Ang3 no biggie, no foul here, at times I am my father and get riled at myself, my issue was letting people make facts, I am for lack of a better term a scientist, we need facts, and someone to blame when the facts aren't.

 

[Klytus]

Hmm facts,like the late arboreocompartmentalisation guy.

 

[rockm]

"Second, the commoditization of every last thing on earth."

FWIW, bonsai has long been a commodity. We tend to think in terms of individual trees, but from what I've seen of Japanese bonsai, bonsai men there tend to deal with trees as commodity (even older trees are commoditized, with older, rarer specimens being worth a lot more than lesser material). They plant species speculatively and send the lesser material to secondary markets (like Europe or even the U.S.). If demand for that speculative species doesn't develop, growers have destroyed the entire field rather than waste money trying to sell it off...

Here is the U.S., bonsai has always been a commodity -- even before the advent of the 'net, IMO. Mallsai, the crappola sold at most nurseries and at roadside stands were and are bought and sold in bulk, given minimal styling either overseas or here in the U.S., then sold, with the end product being mostly expendable. In a lot of cases, the trees are/were intentionally mispotted in bad soil an d accompanied byeven worse care instructions so the tree would die and the buyer might get another...planned obsolesence...

 

[Attila Soos]

"...even older trees are commoditized, with older, rarer specimens being worth a lot more than lesser material

Not so fast.

The fact that we pay more for an older and rarer specimen, then for a lesser material, does not make them a commodity. So, great bonsai is NOT a commodity. It has subjective value, some people may pay a lot more than others, and in some markets it may be worth much more than in others. And it's relatively rare. This is why is not a commodity.

A commodity is something that is mass-produced, has standardized features (which is exactly why they can be mass-produced), and can be easily priced in a competitive market. In the case of commodities, their quality on the top level is very similar, so the only way they can compete, is pricing.
Mallsai is a commodity, for the above reasons. Great bonsai could never fit the above criteria.

Edit: There may be a miscommunication on the meaning of the word "commodity". Some people may use it as "everything that can be sold". But this is inaccurate, because then everything in life would be a commodity. The correct definition of the term uses "standardization", "mass-production", and "price-competitiveness" as the main criteria.