Where to cut my 5 needle??
- Thread starter typoolVT
- Start date
discusmike
Omono
From what I can see the tree is very young, focus on a good fertilizing routine for the next few seasons, check the rootball, if its pot bound you can transfer the tree to a larger pot in january, it needs to grow more if you want it to become a nice bonsai, some others with more pine experience might also hhave advice, while its growing learn all about white pine.
typoolVT
Yamadori
This tree is about 8 years old. It's been in this pot for 6 years. It is root bound. I'm going to wire and basic shape it now and when spring time rolls around find a nice pot for it and grow it shohin style. I know the basics about white pine, but the guy I got it from (Julian Adams) has been growing white pines for 30 years, so he's helped me out a lot with information on these guys. It's a strong little tree, so I'm not worried about it too much now.
jkd2572
Masterpiece
I would just wire the side branches down to let more light in. That will help it back bud and open you up to more choices in the future.
typoolVT
Yamadori
I know you can't really see details in the pics but it's already back budding in some good spots now.
Neli
Omono
If you are satisfied with the size of the trunk you can start developing branches. Normally branches are cut to a small shoot if the size needs to be reduced and ramification started.
At Taisho en they have been doing experiments for 3 years now with older pines by removing buds in order to promote back budding. Some branches back bud and some dont. But generally the results are positive.
Here is a tree from this experiment.
Here are the buds removed:
and here it is buck budding:
Hope it helps.
At Taisho en they have been doing experiments for 3 years now with older pines by removing buds in order to promote back budding. Some branches back bud and some dont. But generally the results are positive.
Here is a tree from this experiment.
Here are the buds removed:
and here it is buck budding:
Hope it helps.
edprocoat
Masterpiece
If you set it on the ground I bet the cat will help with the cutting down part....
ed
ed
ChrisV
Shohin
My advice would be, plant it in a colander or pond basket to thicken the trunk.
It will develop roots and when the tips come in contact with the air the search another way.
This will give you a nice compact rootball.
When the trunk is not yet the desired thickness put the colander in a bigger one and let it grow.
If it is thick enough just take the colander out of the other and prune the roots off.
When it is growing thicker you can work on backbudding and build up a branch structure already.
One most important thing is that you let the top shoot as high as it can without pruning.
Only height will give you thickening and at the end you just cut it of.
This will take up to 5 years but you will see a good result.
It's also the way they create shohin mostly black pine from cuttings in Japan.
They create small developed shohin trees within 5 to 7 years this way.
It will develop roots and when the tips come in contact with the air the search another way.
This will give you a nice compact rootball.
When the trunk is not yet the desired thickness put the colander in a bigger one and let it grow.
If it is thick enough just take the colander out of the other and prune the roots off.
When it is growing thicker you can work on backbudding and build up a branch structure already.
One most important thing is that you let the top shoot as high as it can without pruning.
Only height will give you thickening and at the end you just cut it of.
This will take up to 5 years but you will see a good result.
It's also the way they create shohin mostly black pine from cuttings in Japan.
They create small developed shohin trees within 5 to 7 years this way.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Sorry but I disagree. It may be the fastest way but not the only way.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Here we go again...
It is pointless getting hung up on the word "only" when his post is 100% right. If it's not the only way, add something worthwhile by sharing your experience thickening the trunk of your JWP.
I let mine grow every direction, and that includes getting taller...as trees tend to do.
Attachments
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I certainly do not wish to cause a controversy but to my old eyes the pictures of the tree you posted as examples of back budding are from a two needle Pine. The subject of this post is a five needle Pine. I apologize in advance, if I am wrong, but when it comes to Pines response to pruning and pinching are worlds apart.
ChrisV
Shohin
Indeed didn't meant to use the word only that literally.
However growing in full ground conditions may it be a pond basket or whatever, can also help you thicken the trunk using a sucker at the base of the tree. This will thicken the tree at that point after a while but they mostly are so close to the base that they need to be removed.
This will leave a big scar or jin.
But also length growth is needed to thicken the whole trunk even and crate some taper.
General rule in trees in general is the bigger they get the thicker trunks they get.
Since pines are apical dominant they need a bigger trunk to send all those resources up the ever growing top that wants to go high.
If growth in the top is limited spread over several branches trunks don't thicken much and flow of nutrition is balanced.
Thats why they develop the weaker lower branches first while letting the top shoot sky high and if that is done, cut off the top growing branch and form an apex out of smaller branches.
The small shohin black pines with thick trunks and dense foliage you see at nursery's around the world. And will cost you hundreds of dollars.
These little ones were seedlings or cuttings cultivated like this for about 7 to 10 years.
Takes time but time is the only way to make good bonsai.
However growing in full ground conditions may it be a pond basket or whatever, can also help you thicken the trunk using a sucker at the base of the tree. This will thicken the tree at that point after a while but they mostly are so close to the base that they need to be removed.
This will leave a big scar or jin.
But also length growth is needed to thicken the whole trunk even and crate some taper.
General rule in trees in general is the bigger they get the thicker trunks they get.
Since pines are apical dominant they need a bigger trunk to send all those resources up the ever growing top that wants to go high.
If growth in the top is limited spread over several branches trunks don't thicken much and flow of nutrition is balanced.
Thats why they develop the weaker lower branches first while letting the top shoot sky high and if that is done, cut off the top growing branch and form an apex out of smaller branches.
The small shohin black pines with thick trunks and dense foliage you see at nursery's around the world. And will cost you hundreds of dollars.
These little ones were seedlings or cuttings cultivated like this for about 7 to 10 years.
Takes time but time is the only way to make good bonsai.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
But still; the original question of where to cut this Five Needle Pine remains unanswered. Everyone keeps posting things for two-needle Pine material which may or may not work for this tree.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This is a good example of how to develop a JBP; JBP back bud profusely. However we are not discussing a JBP specifically or Two-Needle Pines in general, we are discussing a five needle Pine, growing on it's own roots. If you let this tree develop the way it has been suggested when the trunk gets where you want it you will have nothing to work with but a bunch of Pom-Poms because this is what White Pines do if you don't know to cut them properly. It is necessary that the branches must be cut during development or disaster will be your reward.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I forgot that only those who have experience should reply, never mind other experiences that may be relevant.
So you find the advise perfect? First I was very generous with my reply. It is NOT the height that dictates trunk thickening...it is the amount of leaves (effective photosynthetic surface area). I let it go as acceptable since MOST of the time they go hand in hand BUT NOT always.
I can have a shorter lush branch that can thicken a trunk faster than a lanky leafless branch.
If man was content cooking on wood fire...oil, gasoline, microwave, etc. would have never been discovered. Same with the wheel, who would have thought of automobile then? Think about it.
This is my last post here so as not to drag this to the mud...AGAIN.
ChrisV
Shohin
Its the height in combination with side branches and a good healthy rootball that will develop. Indeed those side branches also have foliage and the tree will benefit from that. But thickening will almost not or very slowly when trees can't go in height.
As for Vance these things are done not only with Black pine but with all pine species.
Even with deciduous trees were they use suckers.
As you can read in earlier post the other branches will develop while the top is going higher.
Even the future apex is shaped during this process so when you cut off the leader you are left with a small almost done tree.
As for Japanese white pine care yes they do tend to grow leggy and pom pom but as I said earlier while it's growing the tree is build up and pruned.
Anwser to the topic question.
You shouldn't cut it yet let it grow.
Just keep in mind that working on white pines must be done slower than other pines.
One step at the time.
So one year you repot, next year you cut candles next year etc.
When cutting candles to promote backbudding always start in in de top the strongest part opposite to other pine species. 2 weeks later the middle and last the lower part.
Remember never cut away a whole candle except if there are more on the growing tip.
A branch without a candle on it will die back on white pine.
If they goyomatsu on their own rootstock be carefull with them and don't overwater.
And I'll leave it with that because it seems some people always disagree with advice you give. Just trying to help.
As for Vance these things are done not only with Black pine but with all pine species.
Even with deciduous trees were they use suckers.
As you can read in earlier post the other branches will develop while the top is going higher.
Even the future apex is shaped during this process so when you cut off the leader you are left with a small almost done tree.
As for Japanese white pine care yes they do tend to grow leggy and pom pom but as I said earlier while it's growing the tree is build up and pruned.
Anwser to the topic question.
You shouldn't cut it yet let it grow.
Just keep in mind that working on white pines must be done slower than other pines.
One step at the time.
So one year you repot, next year you cut candles next year etc.
When cutting candles to promote backbudding always start in in de top the strongest part opposite to other pine species. 2 weeks later the middle and last the lower part.
Remember never cut away a whole candle except if there are more on the growing tip.
A branch without a candle on it will die back on white pine.
If they goyomatsu on their own rootstock be carefull with them and don't overwater.
And I'll leave it with that because it seems some people always disagree with advice you give. Just trying to help.
wireme
Masterpiece
I would suggest keeping an eye on areas that have too many buds or branches on the same spot on the trunk or branches. Looks to me that if the tree is simply allowed to grow out as is some bulges or reverse taper may develop.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I agree with Vance. White pines are a totally different animal than JBP. Black pines will grow a second flush of growth if ma nipulated properly and back bud really well. With white pines back budding is a crap shoot if it back buds at all. You can let a top leader or sacrifice branch for thickening purposes. Then you cut it off. If you don't work on the branches you want to keep they will become pom poems because it's already been said that pines are apically dominant meaning they want to grow at the top and the ends of the branches. If back budding is hard to get to happen on a tree then you have no foliage close to the trunk where you need it.
And to disagree with Vance Wood about pines is just plain crazy. He is one of a few people on here that really know pine trees.
Merry Christmas
And to disagree with Vance Wood about pines is just plain crazy. He is one of a few people on here that really know pine trees.
Merry Christmas
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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The same thing can be said with JBP. Once the foliage has extended beyond a certain point on JBP, grafting is the only way to get it back in toward the trunk. The main difference between JBP and JWP is how you manage the branches intended to stay as branches. With JBP, you can candle prune, counting on the second flush of growth to maintain vigor. With JWP, you don't have that luxury, I agree, but I have to believe there are pruning techniques that will keep the foliage in tight to the trunk while the sacrifice branch, growing high above the future branching, thickens the trunk.
