Gabler
Masterpiece
I think we might be asking the same question in two different ways, but I'm not sure.
When did chopping trunks come around?
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I think we might be asking the same question in two different ways, but I'm not sure.
gschup
Sapling
The way I understood it, the only difference between a cut and a chop is the diameter.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I feel it is a sliding scale, and some cut and grow allows the trunk to get really fat, make one big cut, and you let it grow for moultiple years again. Other cut and grow cuts at least once a year if no more.
When is a bunch of rocks a pile?
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
I think it is more commonly called clip and grow. So the difference should be fairly obvious.................... clip or chop.
A plant that is clipped will most often resemble a bonsai in the making, even to a novice. Chop and grow starts as something of an abomination in appearance, rather like a tree cut down with just enough hanging on to keep in going. I realize that my descriptions are rather strong, and as in all things, there are many shades of gray.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I heard 50 or so if you are into tree bondage..
houterig
Seedling
I find this a rather nice article about this topic.
https://www.bonsaiempire.com/blog/bonsai-trunk-creation
https://www.bonsaiempire.com/blog/bonsai-trunk-creation
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
This is exactly the right way to think about it. @William N. Valavanis doesn't even particularly like the term "trunk chop". He prefers "aggressive pruning" or similar...
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
I consider a chop any cut made to the trunk of the tree....
I primarily use clip and grow... Growing a sacrifice out and then cutting it off is not what I would consider a trunk chop - your sacrifice should Not be part of the trunk you are training.
I primarily use clip and grow... Growing a sacrifice out and then cutting it off is not what I would consider a trunk chop - your sacrifice should Not be part of the trunk you are training.
Wulfskaar
Omono
Same... I always think of a "chop" being on the trunk of the tree.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Any method that produces results you want is good.
Every method also has pros and cons.
I've just found that fast grow and big chop is not ultimately faster because of the lengthy second phase.
For most species I prefer regular cut and grow because I get much better results (in my view) and in less time than it takes to heal a big chop and grow the new apex and branches but I also have a few big chop trees that are good after extensive carving to reduce the stumpiness.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Trunk chops are offputting for many people because most rarely get to see what the tree looks like down the road. They've not had the tree long enough and are discouraged, or think the method isn't effective because all they have reference to in their back yard is a weird looking stump with a small apex branch. The bigger the stump, the longer things can take. A lot depends on the species you're working with and how you're working it after the chop.
FWIW (and I've posted this a fair amount in other threads). This is the trunk chopped live oak stump I started with 25ish years ago and the result now. It takes time.
FWIW (and I've posted this a fair amount in other threads). This is the trunk chopped live oak stump I started with 25ish years ago and the result now. It takes time.
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shohin_branches
Chumono
Most people don't notice good trunk chops because when they're well done they're not initially visible without careful assessment of the tree. We focus more on the bad ones because they stand out
Fidur
Chumono
I've been around in bonsai for too short time to have an idea on what happens long term after a chopping, but I can give you some examples on what happened shorter term in my trees
I also think the number of years needed to get a credible tree after a chopping deeply depends on the species.
Let's take this bouganville for instance (2 years ago):
I chopped it to 1/6 of its height, and to improve the tapering, I carved the top side of the chop. Here it is a month after:
As you can see plenty of buds came to life in the trunk.
After that I only had to select wich were to kill, and slowly develope (cut and grow) the others. This summer looked like this:
When it comes to ficus, also a big chop can be practiced with no fear of enough buds coming back to life. In this example, it took one and a half years to get something nice. In this case I chopped and made a jin, that was later partially removed:
This is a callistemon. I bought it and chopped partially a year ago. After that I've been growing it through cut and grow in a bloom style
I must mention, that these are generous species, and my climate is great. Results should differ with different species and different climates.
I also think the number of years needed to get a credible tree after a chopping deeply depends on the species.
Let's take this bouganville for instance (2 years ago):
I chopped it to 1/6 of its height, and to improve the tapering, I carved the top side of the chop. Here it is a month after:
As you can see plenty of buds came to life in the trunk.
After that I only had to select wich were to kill, and slowly develope (cut and grow) the others. This summer looked like this:
When it comes to ficus, also a big chop can be practiced with no fear of enough buds coming back to life. In this example, it took one and a half years to get something nice. In this case I chopped and made a jin, that was later partially removed:
This is a callistemon. I bought it and chopped partially a year ago. After that I've been growing it through cut and grow in a bloom style
I must mention, that these are generous species, and my climate is great. Results should differ with different species and different climates.
Jrmcmich
Shohin
Nice examples of some real trees in stages. Thanks for the pictures and nice job on those. They are looking good
defra
Masterpiece
Im not around long enough to know if its been around since the beginning or not but we can say for sure it is a common thing now.
Someone mentioned it already it will be different each species how fast they grow and heal wounds its common to have the "chop" hidden on the back so its not directly visible but same goes for shows its often hard to see the back because they display the front same goes for photos.
Ive got a fraxinus growing i trunk chopped it and even large cuts take only two seasons in the ground to heal but in a pot its much slower i think after three years in the ground and then into a pot it will become less noticable over the years after and when the bark starts to get mature and old looking even less noticable combine that with hidding it in the back and maybe no one notice its been chopped at some point.
Someone mentioned it already it will be different each species how fast they grow and heal wounds its common to have the "chop" hidden on the back so its not directly visible but same goes for shows its often hard to see the back because they display the front same goes for photos.
Ive got a fraxinus growing i trunk chopped it and even large cuts take only two seasons in the ground to heal but in a pot its much slower i think after three years in the ground and then into a pot it will become less noticable over the years after and when the bark starts to get mature and old looking even less noticable combine that with hidding it in the back and maybe no one notice its been chopped at some point.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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These trees were all either grown by me then chopped, collected by me then chopped, purchased by me then chopped, or chopped before purchase (wouldn't fit in the shipping box 
), or clearly chopped by the grower during development. I can't speak to when the practice became commonplace but I suspect it's been done for a very long time. I'm not quite sure why someone would consider a chop a short cut due to lack of patience when the technique clearly results in good/great trees when applied with some for skill and thought to the future design.
Grown by me and chopped during development
Collected by me and chopped after collection
Purchased as raw field grown stock and chopped by me
Chopped by someone else during the trunk development period
Chopped after collection
Chopped during trunk development (Japanese import)
), or clearly chopped by the grower during development. I can't speak to when the practice became commonplace but I suspect it's been done for a very long time. I'm not quite sure why someone would consider a chop a short cut due to lack of patience when the technique clearly results in good/great trees when applied with some for skill and thought to the future design. Grown by me and chopped during development
Collected by me and chopped after collection
Purchased as raw field grown stock and chopped by me
Chopped by someone else during the trunk development period
Chopped after collection
Chopped during trunk development (Japanese import)
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
If I had to render a guess, the big trunk chip phenomenon has come about in the last few decades as bonsai has grown in popularity in the western world, and also as urbanization has become the default. These together mean that the the easiest and most common source for procuring starter material is the lawn and garden center, where most trees are actually grown with landscape in mind, meaning tall trunks that also happen to be relatively fat. For a great many of us, there is no other reliable economical source of material. Taking a 6ft/2m tree done to shin height, there's no other option but a big chop. Even when digging trees, they're usually from landscape and you're still starting larger than ideal.
Between all these factors, big trunk chops have become standard practice. The issue at hand is that it's become so normalized that, like @Shibui points out, we often catch each other going at it without realizing that it's not the most effective/efficient method, even under these constraints.
I, for one, can't bring myself to do it. If it's much thicker than my thumb I hesitate to consider it as reasonable material under most circumstances. (There are, of course, many exceptions.)
Smaller trunk chops as part of cut-and-grow from a seedling or sapling is also very common, but again, SMALLER. The smaller the thing you're cutting, the faster and smoother it will heal. Yes, it will take you 10 to 15 years I get that nice thick tapered trunk when starting the size of your pinky, but it would take you just as long to manage the wounds of a chop the width of your wrist and you still won't get the same taper.
Big trunk chops are an act of necessity, not the preferred method.
Between all these factors, big trunk chops have become standard practice. The issue at hand is that it's become so normalized that, like @Shibui points out, we often catch each other going at it without realizing that it's not the most effective/efficient method, even under these constraints.
I, for one, can't bring myself to do it. If it's much thicker than my thumb I hesitate to consider it as reasonable material under most circumstances. (There are, of course, many exceptions.)
Smaller trunk chops as part of cut-and-grow from a seedling or sapling is also very common, but again, SMALLER. The smaller the thing you're cutting, the faster and smoother it will heal. Yes, it will take you 10 to 15 years I get that nice thick tapered trunk when starting the size of your pinky, but it would take you just as long to manage the wounds of a chop the width of your wrist and you still won't get the same taper.
Big trunk chops are an act of necessity, not the preferred method.
pandacular
Masterpiece
Lot of guesswork and supposition in this thread. I don’t know enough about history of practice to make a claim on trends and norms. But I will share an example of a tree with which I’m intimately familiar.
This hackberry in the permanent collection of the Pacific Bonsai Museum was growing as a landscape tree beside Ben Oki’s home, and it was growing too closely to the roof. In 1962, this tree was a 20 foot tall tree that needed to be removed, so it was chopped and transplanted to a pot. The chop has been somewhat disguised by the hollow carving with the multiple trunks. While it is an excellent tree and one of the gems of the collection, it is obvious to any practitioner that this was formed by a chop.
This hackberry in the permanent collection of the Pacific Bonsai Museum was growing as a landscape tree beside Ben Oki’s home, and it was growing too closely to the roof. In 1962, this tree was a 20 foot tall tree that needed to be removed, so it was chopped and transplanted to a pot. The chop has been somewhat disguised by the hollow carving with the multiple trunks. While it is an excellent tree and one of the gems of the collection, it is obvious to any practitioner that this was formed by a chop.
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rusticana
Yamadori
Hi
I think the practice has been going on for centuries. But with the advent of the modern nursery people realized it was a quick way to go. And often the best material could be found in the discount section
rusticana
Yamadori
I'd imagine its been going on for centuries. Or even from the conception of penging/bonsai origins. I think other cultures were involed too.
But with the advent of the modern nursery, enthusiasts clued in they can find a good specimen and cut it down. Sometimes in the discount section because trees suited for this purpose can be hard to sell as a garden tree? Beware though. What the nursery sells may not necessarily be what its labeled. Like its not guarenteed. The only way to do that is a cutting from the mother tree.
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