When did chopping trunks come around?

[PastryBaker]

Hi,

I guess this is more of a history of bonsai question. When I first got into bonsai in the early 70s,,yes, I am that old. I remember only seeing and hearing about growing from seeds, cuttings or collecting. Not that I just got started back into it a few years ago, I notice many trees for sale look as that were an older tree and then the trunk chopped down. Was this always around? Of course we didn't have the internet back then so I could not really research that much. I don't really remember seeing it when I was young. So many of the trees back then had no chops like that. Just curious. Thanks

 

[penumbra]

I think it has been awhile, but it seems very much more so now. I have a ginkgo that I bought at a nursery 35 years ago with it being about 10 feet tall. It had almost no character. It is now maybe 2 feet tall and very well branches with a nice thick trunk and developing nebari. Also bought a Stewartia about the same time. It was about 12-14 feet tall. It is about 4 feet tall now.

 

[leatherback]

It started when people lost the ability to be patient, and instant gratification became the melody of the day...

Note.. Nowadays a lot more information on growing bonsai is around. So it could be there are more chopped trees (I think you are right) but also: A chop done well, is not glaringly obvious and might be missed if you are not aware of the process.

 

[nuttiest]

Youtube.

 

[penumbra]

Youtube.

That is where I first saw bonsai butchery starting with a big chop.

 

[Time Wizard]

Is trunk chopping not a typically "acceptable" method of developing a tree? I was under the impression that trunk chopping was more or less the primary way to work taper into a tree.

 

[Shibui]

Is trunk chopping not a typically "acceptable" method of developing a tree? I was under the impression that trunk chopping was more or less the primary way to work taper into a tree.

Any method is acceptable provided it produces a good looking outcome.
Chopping a large trunk down can produce good trunks but it can also produce glaringly obvious 'stump' bonsai. I suspect that the vast majority of those big chop trees end up passed on to unsuspecting newbies or being scrapped. I don't see very many on show benches.
One of the problems is that some people with less experience have decided that if a small chop is good then a big chop must be better. I've been doing this for nearly as long as @PastryBaker and have been trying to explain to newbies with a passion for big chops that the follow up work of regrowing the trunk, developing branches and apex can take almost as long as growing a trunk from scratch with more regular, smaller chops. Years taken to reach desired trunk thickness and first chop is not the end. That's just the first part of a much longer process so fast growing a thick trunk then chopping may not really be the fastest way to your bonsai goal.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Any method is acceptable provided it produces a good looking outcome.
Chopping a large trunk down can produce good trunks but it can also produce glaringly obvious 'stump' bonsai. I suspect that the vast majority of those big chop trees end up passed on to unsuspecting newbies or being scrapped. I don't see very many on show benches.
One of the problems is that some people with less experience have decided that if a small chop is good then a big chop must be better. I've been doing this for nearly as long as @PastryBaker and have been trying to explain to newbies with a passion for big chops that the follow up work of regrowing the trunk, developing branches and apex can take almost as long as growing a trunk from scratch with more regular, smaller chops. Years taken to reach desired trunk thickness and first chop is not the end. That's just the first part of a much longer process so fast growing a thick trunk then chopping may not really be the fastest way to your bonsai goal.

Shibui, I know we've discussed this before. In your experience, what is the proper amount of time between cut backs, on a healthy tree, lets say a JM for example. (I get it's pretty variable based on growth). I've been trying to cut back more often, but I feel like end up loosing so much "momentum". I guess how does one know how to optimally hit that balance?

 

[Cajunrider]

Trunk chopping has been around since forever! It is as natural as natural disasters that break tree trunks/branches, and then the trees regrow. The means to make the scar heal better have been improving a lot in last few decades.

Any method is acceptable provided it produces a good looking outcome.
Chopping a large trunk down can produce good trunks but it can also produce glaringly obvious 'stump' bonsai. I suspect that the vast majority of those big chop trees end up passed on to unsuspecting newbies or being scrapped. I don't see very many on show benches.
One of the problems is that some people with less experience have decided that if a small chop is good then a big chop must be better. I've been doing this for nearly as long as @PastryBaker and have been trying to explain to newbies with a passion for big chops that the follow up work of regrowing the trunk, developing branches and apex can take almost as long as growing a trunk from scratch with more regular, smaller chops. Years taken to reach desired trunk thickness and first chop is not the end. That's just the first part of a much longer process so fast growing a thick trunk then chopping may not really be the fastest way to your bonsai goal.

The big chop often heals slowly because there is precious little foliage left to drive the healing process. The chop also can be so big that is not easy to hide. Even in fast healing species such as bald cypress, a 4" wide chop will take 10 years to close in my estimate. Some of the wider chops will never heal. For me, when I make a big chop, I take into consideration of the carving of the trunk and the reality of making the chop a permanent design of the tree.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I too think it is a more modern technique. I have some of the Sunset bonsai books as well as an early Japanese book from the 1970s that don’t memtion it at all. Growing from seed/cuttings and collecting were the main methods I remember from back then. I also have not seen any of the Japanese YouTube channels mention it, they all seem to deal with collected, field grown, and cuttings for material.

 

[Gabler]

How else would you grow a classic, formulaic informal upright or broom style tree? I had been under the impression that chops are less common now that naturalistic bonsai is coming into style.

 

[dbonsaiw]

One of the problems is that some people with less experience have decided that if a small chop is good then a big chop must be better. I've been doing this for nearly as long as @PastryBaker and have been trying to explain to newbies with a passion for big chops that the follow up work of regrowing the trunk, developing branches and apex can take almost as long as growing a trunk from scratch with more regular, smaller chops.

I guess the part of this that I dont exactly understand is taper - how does one create the type of taper achieved by a big chop with chop and grow?

 

[PastryBaker]

I too think it is a more modern technique. I have some of the Sunset bonsai books as well as an early Japanese book from the 1970s that don’t memtion it at all. Growing from seed/cuttings and collecting were the main methods I remember from back then. I also have not seen any of the Japanese YouTube channels mention it, they all seem to deal with collected, field grown, and cuttings for material.

I had a Sunset book back in the 70s. And I don't remember seeing anything on it. That is why I wanted to know when did it start.

 

[rockm]

trunk chopping has been around as long as bonsai. It's just that it wasn't well known back in the early days of bonsai in the West. Peter Chan's book "Bonsai Masterclass" in 1987 was the first Western bonsai book to cover it extensively that I've seen.

Looking at the trees in the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum up close in person for many years, I think it is evident in many of the older trees. Thing is, done well, trunk chops eventually melt into the design over many years. The marks are there on old and even VERY old trees, but they're there, they're just used well.

Collectors in China and Japan, for the most part, were not going out and finding natural small "finished" stunted trees back in the day. Anyone who has collected older specimens here in the west knows that "natural" bonsai, that are immediately presentable, are unicorns. Wiring bonsai didn't begin until the industrial revolution--early 1900s, as suitable wire wasn't available.

 

[Shibui]

I guess the part of this that I dont exactly understand is taper - how does one create the type of taper achieved by a big chop with chop and grow?

I guess my question is whether you really want the type of taper achieved by a big chop if it's just plain ugly.

After any chop, big or small, both upper and lower sections will thicken roughly the same amount. If the new shoot above the chop adds 1/4 inch diameter then the thicker, lower section also adds 1/4 inch in thickness. (without allowing for additional thickening from branches below the chop)

I'm going to need some time to think of how to show or explain how the process works

 

[penumbra]

As rockm stated, wiring took off in the early 20th century. But its roots go back much further and rope was used prior to that hundreds of years ago in China and then in Japan. The following article is interesting.

History of Bonsai Wiring Technique

Bonsai, an art form deeply rooted in the history of China and Japan, has evolved over the centuries, bearing witness to the rich cultural exchange between these two nations. During the Tang Dynasty in China, where bonsai traces its origins, the practice of cultivating miniature trees gained...

www.connaughtbonsai.com

As to large chops, these are bold moves practiced by both the very experienced and by the impatient newbe as well. Over the years I have become bolder in large cuts on many trees, but take the more conservative route on most of them.

 

[Shibui]

Shibui, I know we've discussed this before. In your experience, what is the proper amount of time between cut backs, on a healthy tree, lets say a JM for example. (I get it's pretty variable based on growth). I've been trying to cut back more often, but I feel like end up loosing so much "momentum". I guess how does one know how to optimally hit that balance?

Like so many other bonsai growing questions - it depends. Species, local climate, soil type and growing conditions will all influence growth rates so the answer for me will be very different from yours.
I'm not sure that 'losing momentum' is a realistic way to look at this -if I'm understanding what you mean by those words. Achieving trunk thickness is only the first part of a much longer journey. After achieving trunk thickness you are not finished. You then need to grow a new apex and get that new apex to thicken enough to blend in with the lower part. At some stage you'll also need to grow branches sufficiently thick to match the trunk. After 3-5 years to thicken the trunk, a typical big chop it can take 10-20 years to build the rest of the tree.
With more regular chops it may take 5-7 years to achieve the same trunk thickness but during those years you have already achieved some of the taper, usually some bends in the trunk and, possibly started some branches. The following apex and branch development can be reduced to 5-10 years because you've already started the process during the trunk thickening phase.
My timelines are only wild guesses and will obviously vary from species to species and place to place but experience shows me that slower is definitely quicker.
You may be quite happy with a stump style bonsai. Feel free to go ahead and grow that but if you want quality that will sit well on a show bench I would advise taking the longer term approach and concentrate on quality rather than speed.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I guess my question is whether you really want the type of taper achieved by a big chop if it's just plain ugly.

The big trunk chop is how I was introduced to bonsai. Since joining BNut I’ve read a number of comments from folks I respect regarding the benefits of cut and grow. So ive added trees that are being developed through cut and grow. I’ve only been doing this 3+ years so I can’t really say which method is better for me or even what they actually produce. The wounds on big cuts can really be an issue/eye sore so I would prefer for cut and grow to be the more ideal method. In my newbness, I just have a hard time understanding taper in this method. Also, I would assume it will take us much longer to get the desired trunk girth through cut and grow, albeit that wounds will be much less of an issue and require much less time to heal over. Do you view the various methods as each having pros and cons the developer needs to consider depending on desired results, or do you believe that cut and grow is simply the superior method regardless of ultimate goals?

 

[badatusernames]

I think as someone who started in the past handful of years it's so prevalent that I'm not sure what it would look like to grow one WITHOUT chopping. Sacrifice branches? When is a chop not a chop?

Like I know Valavanis grew his fantastic maples in pots, but I also know folks who have had trees in pots for 20 years that don't look remotely thickened or developed. Are they just not letting it grow out enough before trimming? The tree I'm thinking of was a willow leaf ficus that he had kept in a bonsai pot and holds it up as proof that it can't be done, but Valavanis kind of proves it can be...

 

[Gabler]

I thought chopping the trunk was the cut and grow method. Would someone please explain the distinction?