What We Learned About Bonsai Since John Naka

[fredman]

You are to young to understand why you should not - we have what you desire here tenfold...

Age has little to do with being wise....bet you'll be surprised at my age. All I desire is less arrogance and that I find here in bucket loads.

 

[Anthony]

Hee Hee interesting Fredman,

if I had to, it would be China, but both the Chinese and the Japanese have been helpful to us.
Enjoying the discussion.
Thanks to All.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[fredman]

I've learned a lot about life since starting Bonsai, something you really wouldn't expect when starting.

Yeah mate...seen a lot of old hands that will never grasp that simple fact...!

 

[Smoke]

The "after Naka" is somewhat controversial in terms of when "after" should start. I am basing my comments on his books, and when he stopped touring.

Around here, his books are regarded as "Bibles". If it's not in BT 1 or 2, then it's not true. Since many of us did not ever have the opportunity to visit his garden, all we have are his books.

I recall that someone pointed out that newer techniques came about during John's lifetime that warranted a "revised edition". He said he had no interest in it. Too bad.

I was lucky enough to get to take a couple of workshops with John. Great fun. I wish I could have seen him more than just one or two days a year.

Agree with me or hate me we have known each other long enough and typed at each other long enough to understand that when I say I am a Bonsai nut, you understand what I mean. I have never owned either of those two books. I used to get them from the library, and once I read them I felt absolutely no desire to own them. I have to tell you, they were out dated when he compiled them. The pictures of the trees in those books were of trees that had been started nearly twenty years prior to writing the book. No one goes out to write a book on trees just started from a one gallon nursery tree. John wrote the books based on the way he did bonsai at the time. John did not do bonsai like he wrote in BT I and he had said as much numerous times at conventions and book signings. Believe it or not John went on to actually despise those books because they were so dated.

Now with that said, Is John Naka the best person to use as the gauge of the progression of Bonsai in "America". I say no, because most of the bias comes from what is known about the man from a couple of poorly written bonsai manuals. Not many people in America know the real John Naka, a most modern bonsaist if there ever was one.

Now if Andrew or Michael wish to talk about the artistry of bonsai since John Naka, then I am sure I would agree with everything they may wish to say. Just don't try and blow sunshine up my skirt about the mechanics, cause it ain't changed at all.

 

[Anthony]

Actually Fredman.

all Al did was humanise the folk he showed on paper. I remember him saying he was ignored on some facts he repeatedly spoke aloud about, but the
moment someone who had studied in Japan said it, everyone sat up and paid attention.
Not a nice feeling.

With Sifu's help [ Adair ] we are trying to decode the training of the J.B.pine, for our non winter zone. They thrive, in a simple 5 mm gravel / compost mix,
coming up on 30 years from seed. If we are successful, will we get similar results to the akadama folk.
If we do, then we join the others in the Eastern tropics who alternatively use volcanic sand [ particle size ? ]

It is interesting to read what someone who knew Mr. Naka, says and those of us who just read what was written.

Anyone else knew Mr. Naka behind the scenes ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[aml1014]

Actually Fredman.

all Al did was humanise the folk he showed on paper. I remember him saying he was ignored on some facts he repeatedly spoke aloud about, but the
moment someone who had studied in Japan said it, everyone sat up and paid attention.
Not a nice feeling.

With Sifu's help [ Adair ] we are trying to decode the training of the J.B.pine, for our non winter zone. They thrive, in a simple 5 mm gravel / compost mix,
coming up on 30 years from seed. If we are successful, will we get similar results to the akadama folk.
If we do, then we join the others in the Eastern tropics who alternatively use volcanic sand [ particle size ? ]

It is interesting to read what someone who knew Mr. Naka, says and those of us who just read what was written.

Anyone else knew Mr. Naka behind the scenes ?
Good Day
Anthony

Not personally, but my teacher john egert knew him and harry hirao very well.

 

[fredman]

all Al did was humanise the folk he showed on paper. I remember him saying he was ignored on some facts he repeatedly spoke aloud about, but the
moment someone who had studied in Japan said it, everyone sat up and paid attention.
Not a nice feeling.

Yep know that feeling.... get it from my children to often. I pride myself as a master parent in training.....whatever that means yes.... What I do then is remind them soflty but surely, and in the same instance I'm glad that they finally got it, and that can improve their lives. I don't go all frantic about it, and turn the whole discussion about me and what i want, because in the end its not about me....its all about the person and his journey in life.....Get the message behind that Ants?

 

[Adair M]

When John autographed my copy of BT 1, he did not mention to me that it was outdated, nor that he hated it. But you knew him better than I.

We had him for workshops and a demo. The workshops were BYOT, and we all tried to outdo each other by bringing a big stump for John to design for us. There were two workshops a day, a morning and an afternoon session. Limited to 8 in each. Each was about 3 hours.

So John would go around and talk about each tree, before doing anything to any of them. Then each of us got about 1/4 hour of his time. Usually, he'd work with one of us, and everyone watched. He might do a few limb amputations, a little wiring, mostly talking about design. Very little in the way of "technique". Once he had done everyone once, and since everyone had watched, very little actual work was performed on the trees. So now, everyone got busy trying to do a little of what John had recommended. This lasted maybe 30 minutes or so.

Then came perhaps everyone's favorite part: John would prop up each students tree in turn, and make a magic marker sketch of what John thought the tree would look like in 5 years. These sketches were (are) highly prized.

Now, the question becomes: did I learn much taking the workshops? Not so much really. Maybe how to look at raw material and "see the tree" possibilities. Not much on how it's done. His sketches of what the tree should look like in 5 years were beautiful, of course. I don't know of any of the trees ever reached or approached his vision.

One of my workshops I had with him was a nice bald cypress that we carved a Uro in. Or began to. It unfortunately died over the winter two seasons later.

 

[quietobserver]

Took up bonsai to escape shit like this...

 

[crust]

Agree with me or hate me we have known each other long enough and typed at each other long enough to understand that when I say I am a Bonsai nut, you understand what I mean. I have never owned either of those two books. I used to get them from the library, and once I read them I felt absolutely no desire to own them. I have to tell you, they were out dated when he compiled them. The pictures of the trees in those books were of trees that had been started nearly twenty years prior to writing the book. No one goes out to write a book on trees just started from a one gallon nursery tree. John wrote the books based on the way he did bonsai at the time. John did not do bonsai like he wrote in BT I and he had said as much numerous times at conventions and book signings. Believe it or not John went on to actually despise those books because they were so dated.

Now with that said, Is John Naka the best person to use as the gauge of the progression of Bonsai in "America". I say no, because most of the bias comes from what is known about the man from a couple of poorly written bonsai manuals. Not many people in America know the real John Naka, a most modern bonsaist if there ever was one.

Now if Andrew or Michael wish to talk about the artistry of bonsai since John Naka, then I am sure I would agree with everything they may wish to say. Just don't try and blow sunshine up my skirt about the mechanics, cause it ain't changed at all.

I get the feeling your perspective is based on an experience seriously skewed from what most folks experienced during the dark ages of American bonsai. Those years (70s-80s) when real Japanese bonsai was going on in California behind the sleeves of kimonos there was a plebeian stirring across the country of newbie ignoramus bonsaists whose only connection to California was when they might have went there to see the Redwoods, and being ignorant bone-headed Americans we read what we could get our hands on--- Naka was revered, we read Yuji, and Brooklyn botanical pamphlets. We had no idea at all how to grow trees in pots and no one around did it. I so remember re-reading the info about soils and mixing dirt with leaf mould and tucking it around my collected jack-pines--what can I say I was a dumb ass. I went to a club a couple of times back then, If you said "John Naka" people would tremble then genuflect spontaneously--he was considered a bonzo-God. I remember Mas Isumi was the drug of choice for a while for the Minneapolis boys. He would get up on stage and everyone would be terribly reverent and then he would proceed to cut and bend up a tree--he would smile a lot--then he would leave. He would never bother to say the obvious and what would be useful, like," you guys soil sucks", or "all your trees are dying and living off of stored resources" or, "You all have the taste of a hub-cap--I am going back to California!" So for a long time nothing really changed at least in my sphere. Some time in the 90s most people I had known had set aside their BT II and started to take notice of the few folks that could make things green and began to copy them--problem was they were mostly ill informed to--and so it went. Anyway, That was the Naka period for me--the time when he was embraced and when he was abandoned (early times thru the early 90s).

 

[carp]

 

[carp]

 

[carp]

 

[carp]

 

[Adair M]

Agree with me or hate me we have known each other long enough and typed at each other long enough to understand that when I say I am a Bonsai nut, you understand what I mean. I have never owned either of those two books. I used to get them from the library, and once I read them I felt absolutely no desire to own them. I have to tell you, they were out dated when he compiled them. The pictures of the trees in those books were of trees that had been started nearly twenty years prior to writing the book. No one goes out to write a book on trees just started from a one gallon nursery tree. John wrote the books based on the way he did bonsai at the time. John did not do bonsai like he wrote in BT I and he had said as much numerous times at conventions and book signings. Believe it or not John went on to actually despise those books because they were so dated.

Now with that said, Is John Naka the best person to use as the gauge of the progression of Bonsai in "America". I say no, because most of the bias comes from what is known about the man from a couple of poorly written bonsai manuals. Not many people in America know the real John Naka, a most modern bonsaist if there ever was one.

Now if Andrew or Michael wish to talk about the artistry of bonsai since John Naka, then I am sure I would agree with everything they may wish to say. Just don't try and blow sunshine up my skirt about the mechanics, cause it ain't changed at all.

Al, I don't always agree with you, nor do I always disagree with you. I certainly don't hate you.

It appears this Naka thing has struck a nerve. Like I said, I took a couple workshops and watched a couple demos he did. I own three of his books. Like someone posted before, around these parts he was, and still is by many, considered to be the ultimate authority on bonsai. Many will say things like "that's not in Naka's books" when I'm teaching a class. And they shut their minds to what I'm trying to teach.

I learned something in this discussion today, about what you said that John came to dispise BT 1 and 2. That's useful info.

 

[Vance Wood]

In light of this thread and all it has contained it is interesting and sad to understand that the future of bonsai does not look too good for more than forty years at a time.

 

[Smoke]

Al, I don't always agree with you, nor do I always disagree with you. I certainly don't hate you.

It appears this Naka thing has struck a nerve. Like I said, I took a couple workshops and watched a couple demos he did. I own three of his books. Like someone posted before, around these parts he was, and still is by many, considered to be the ultimate authority on bonsai. Many will say things like "that's not in Naka's books" when I'm teaching a class. And they shut their minds to what I'm trying to teach.

I learned something in this discussion today, about what you said that John came to dispise BT 1 and 2. That's useful info.

I still think Michaels point should have been artistry and not mechanics. Working with the new people in that regard can move you light years. That's why I go to Boons exhibit @Andrew Thomas , not because they use akadama pumice and lava, not because they wire conifers with copper and deciduous with aluminum and not because they sift their soil. I go because the artistry of the tree is pretty much unsurpassed here in California.

OK now I'm done. Cheers.

 

[Adair M]

I'll see you then in January! Safe travels!

 

[Smoke]

I'll see you then in January! Safe travels!

maybe not......more bad news this week. Maybe thats why I'm in a funk.. Mama Smoke has three spots on her liver. I was home all day with her, spent the first 5 hours at the hospital doing a CT scan guided needle biopsy. Results on the 30th, next week.

Not a very merry Christmas around here

We'll see.

 

[Adair M]

We're all praying for her, Al.