What makes a good pot?

[fourteener]

This is a difficult question. A growing number of bonsai folks are collecting pots who aren't looking to use them with trees. That's great, but those pots are in (I think), a completely different category from functional pots that will house actual trees. The collector pots can be just about anything, while (IMO), great functional pots require more skill to design and make.

Sometimes collectors pots just aren't used because of their value. I wouldnt say they require less skill or more skill. A Wajaku pot is exceptionally skillfully made. I think some pots are so nice they interfere with the presentation of the tree and that is the problem.

I think the best potters check their ego at the door and allow the tree to be first and the pot second. Most artists want their work to be primary. There aren't a lot of budding framers out their wanting their frame to upstage the art itself. (I recognize someone can find a frame that is mind blowing).

At the end of the day a great pot is like an assist in basketball, it makes someone else better.

 

[rockm]

Sometimes collectors pots just aren't used because of their value. I wouldnt say they require less skill or more skill. A Wajaku pot is exceptionally skillfully made. I think some pots are so nice they interfere with the presentation of the tree and that is the problem.

I think the best potters check their ego at the door and allow the tree to be first and the pot second. Most artists want their work to be primary. There aren't a lot of budding framers out their wanting their frame to upstage the art itself. (I recognize someone can find a frame that is mind blowing).

At the end of the day a great pot is like an assist in basketball, it makes someone else better.

True enough, but there's a kind of circular reasoning. A pot that's too expensive to use and overshadows a tree is arguably not meant to be used. While Japanese potters have made "collectors" pots that retain functional integrity, I have seen a few western pots that are rather sloppily made, yet covered with excellent, interesting glazes that would simply overwhelm just about anything put in it.

 

[Solange]

May I add that I believe a pot that overshadows one tree may compliment another?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think of pots in terms of their functional characteristics separate from their aesthetics.

(1) FUNCTION
(a) Must be robust and be able to survive the rigors of bonsai - being outside 24/7 - direct sun in hot weather or freezing cold temperatures.
(b) Must stand up well to reuse / repotting numerous times. Finish (glazed or non) should not easily flake or break off. Edges / contact surfaces should not be easy to chip.
(c) Must have adequate drainage. Bottom should be flat or slightly concave - low points being drain holes - so water can not pool.
(d) Must be heavy enough to provide reasonable stability support for tree. Pot should not be easy to tip over.
(e) Additional holes for anchor wires are nice but not required.

(2) AESTHETICS
(a) Must be quality work. Even rustic pots must look like they were planned to be rustic, and not the result of sloppy workmanship or mistakes.
(b) Must not have flaws. Must not have tool markings or finger marks, unless they are obvious part of the design.
(c) Lines should be clean. Straight lines should be perfectly straight, not slumped or bent. Curves should be smooth without dents or aberrations.
(d) Symmetry must be visually perfect when/where used. Parallel lines should be parallel, angles should be perfect, etc.
(e) Aesthetics should not take priority over function.

 

[fourteener]

True enough, but there's a kind of circular reasoning. A pot that's too expensive to use and overshadows a tree is arguably not meant to be used. While Japanese potters have made "collectors" pots that retain functional integrity, I have seen a few western pots that are rather sloppily made, yet covered with excellent, interesting glazes that would simply overwhelm just about anything put in it.

Your circle comes back around right...a pot that outshines a tree, should house a better tree.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

True enough, but there's a kind of circular reasoning. A pot that's too expensive to use and overshadows a tree is arguably not meant to be used. While Japanese potters have made "collectors" pots that retain functional integrity, I have seen a few western pots that are rather sloppily made, yet covered with excellent, interesting glazes that would simply overwhelm just about anything put in it.

I don't consider art pots to be true bonsai pots - within the context of what we are discussing here, just like I don't consider a sterling silver mountain bike to be a worthy addition to a conversation about what makes a good mountain bike

Yes, there are some amazing art pots out there that I drool over. However they are designed specifically to be art pots - for people to look at and not for use. I think you could have a separate discussion around making art pots that are in the form of bonsai pots, and you could easily break just about every functional rule - art pots don't need drain holes for example, nor do they have to have a robust finish or be designed to weather freeze/thaw cycles. I think they are two completely different things.

 

[rockm]

People

I don't consider art pots to be true bonsai pots - within the context of what we are discussing here, just like I don't consider a sterling silver mountain bike to be a worthy addition to a conversation about what makes a good mountain bike

Yes, there are some amazing art pots out there that I drool over. However they are designed specifically to be art pots - for people to look at and not for use. I think you could have a separate discussion around making art pots that are in the form of bonsai pots, and you could easily break just about every functional rule - art pots don't need drain holes for example, nor do they have to have a robust finish or be designed to weather freeze/thaw cycles. I think they are two completely different things.

True dat, but people miss the distinction sometimes.

 

[Solange]

What is the distinction though? I was going to ask the same thing of bunt. Who is making a non-functional art only pots? As far as I am aware, all of the "art" pots are fully capable of holding a tree. So really doesn't it again come down to the taste definition of the bonsai artist as to whether they would like to use said pot with their work? It seems that there isn't a clear distinction in the marketing, only in the use or display of.

 

[Anthony]

Solange,

if you took the time to really sculpt a dragon going through the clouds on a pot.
A dragon that was anatomically correct, clouds that were separated by mass and so on.
Gave it dragon's feet, 3 to 5 toes. [ I believe 5 toes and it goes imperial ]
It would be an ornament.

AND you would probably return it to being filled with sand and incense sticks burning before images of ancestors.

Remember Bonsai pots were colourful and with images of birds, flowers etc. up to around the late 1700's.
The simple shapes /colour we use today, as a "modern" preference from the 1800's or so.

If you took a 500 year old Shimpaku, carved the white wood and made appropriate green mounds.
It could handle an image involved pot, but wouldn't a simple pot leave the eye on your Shimpaku work ?

Gold carved 12 to 20 inch frames on say a Tiziano, can work because he was a colorist and his work /dynamic motion / Design
visually overpowers the frame.

I am not sure how well a Bonsai can overpower too much ornament /glaze on a pot????????????
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Solange]

an interesting departure point perhaps is the use of louder and more ornate pots in mame and shohin. I frequently see more of an interplay or incorporation of the composition as a whole. Why might we be more open to flashy pots in that way? I am trying not to place my own beliefs on these questions or points (although perhaps inevitable to some degree) and I'm also not placing value judgements on others opinions here. I am hopeful that this thread will encourage the expansion of critical thinking regarding these topics.

 

[Anthony]

The eye can accept very bright colours in small things ------- think gems in rings.

The idea is often used in Old Master paintings -------- Solange , just in case you are wondering,
though I lack true creativity, I did take quite a few courses in Art Appreciation when I was in
London.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[rockm]

What is the distinction though? I was going to ask the same thing of bunt. Who is making a non-functional art only pots? As far as I am aware, all of the "art" pots are fully capable of holding a tree. So really doesn't it again come down to the taste definition of the bonsai artist as to whether they would like to use said pot with their work? It seems that there isn't a clear distinction in the marketing, only in the use or display of.

Not really, like I said, there are some sloppily made pots out there with uneven bottoms, slumped sides (unintentional), and other construction flaws. Does not really come down to taste-- a badly formed pot with a colorful glaze is still a badly made pot. That shows through and is very distracting.

 

[Vin]

Included in my OP question is also the flip - what makes a bonsai pot bad? What absolutely is unacceptable to you? What makes you fall in love with a particular pot, or potter. Are american potters crap, do you only put your trust in europe or japan etc for your pots? Or do you only buy american pots? Does artistic license belong to the potter and taste is up to the buyer? Rich territory, and one we've been skirting around for a while. Someone (i think maybe @Vin?) suggested a post on what makes a good pot, so if you are knowledgable and would like to share feel free!

This is a great thread. However, in the thread about American Potters when my question was initially answered I stated "I'm referring more to the design elements." So far, I really haven't read much about design elements in this thread yet. I raised the same question a while back about bonsai displays. Like pots, there are apparently certain design elements that make them "good" or "bad". Many people poo-pooed at the displays I posted because they were "bad", you know, kind of like when David Crust used a vacuum cleaner as part of his Larch display in the Artisans Cup. Just sayin'

Found the old thread on displays http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/…and-we-thought-it-was-all-about-the-trees.20189/

 

[Solange]

Not really, like I said, there are some sloppily made pots out there with uneven bottoms, slumped sides (unintentional), and other construction flaws. Does not really come down to taste-- a badly formed pot with a colorful glaze is still a badly made pot. That shows through and is very distracting.

Construction flaws are separate from glaze or other outward design. There are excellently constructed and functional (in this case meaning able to keep a tree healthy) pots that are loud. It seems to me this is largely a taste issue after we have established that the construction is sound, perhaps even stellar. Again, just some thoughts to figure out where you are coming from.

 

[crust]

This is a great thread. However, in the thread about American Potters when my question was initially answered I stated "I'm referring more to the design elements." So far, I really haven't read much about design elements in this thread yet. I raised the same question a while back about bonsai displays. Like pots, there are apparently certain design elements that make them "good" or "bad". Many people poo-pooed at the displays I posted because they were "bad", you know, kind of like when David Crust used a vacuum cleaner as part of his Larch display in the Artisans Cup. Just sayin'

Found the old thread on displays http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/…and-we-thought-it-was-all-about-the-trees.20189/

I resemble that remark.

 

[crust]

Pot design that I favor are great proportion (something a lot of Amer. Potters struggle with), rough clay bodies, flared designs, well built strong suble feet(I really don't like many of the airy japanese frilly feet I see), great and varied lips, super durability, avoid boatiness, avoid narrow based dezigns, mix great proportion and design with organic textures and subtle but detailed glazing.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke says: I know it when I see it......

 

[Vin]

Smoke says: I know it when I see it......

Me to but I can't see worth a shit so I need your help.

 

[fourteener]

Smoke says: I know it when I see it......

Some people should trust their instincts, some people should not. I don't always know how to help the second batch!!

 

[Smoke]

Me to but I can't see worth a shit so I need your help.

let me give you a little background into my thinking...this may take a while...

I am a very simple guy. I don't go in for designer cars or designer clothes. I don't wear Nike tennies or Bruno Magli shoes. I have some Japanese tools, their not high grade nor stainless. I have some Japanese pots, nothing very costly, no Koyo's or Tofukuji's. I make my own stands, mostly out of necessity. I have very good wood working skills so I have been rather successfull in that regard. I am not a wood carver so my stands tend to be rather simple in design and easier to build. My trees reflect the lack of professionalism of a polished bonsai practitioner, and so I wish my pots to reflect the overall lack of polish that a professional may exhibit.

I don't have anything to prove with fancy tables or fancy tools, or fancy stands. I just do the best I can with what I have. It's very good for my local circle of friends. In many ways light years ahead of many of them based on the constant wanting of my time as a teacher, of which I have none. That may change soon as I get closer to retirement and my health holds out. I could make a pretty good living with stands and teaching, just not enough at the moment to quit my job.

I am a working man, I do not have time to clean my pots once a month of calcium. Rough textured pots, pine needle designs, and cracked earth pots will look terrible in a month in my locale. When I do wish to exhibit a tree it usually takes about a good two hours in a large plastic tub of water and a pumice stone with a quick coat of camellia oil after. The pot is good for another couple of months.

I do take pride in my work, and although I feel it is lacking, based on what I see, I don't see many transformations like this in three years. Simple is good.