What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

[LAS]

Are there any mosses/short tufts of growth that would perform in the same way as a cover crop?

 

[BobbyLane]

It seems to for my trees, yet it depends. If we were to see a deep rooted competitor for that needs lots of water and space in our pots, it would leave in short order.

The idea of creating a complex micro ecosystem of complementary plants etc in one’s pots is intriguing to one like myself, possessing a backgound in environmental ecology.



One can be sure that this will work. I do see two issues.

First and foremost, the aesthetic. If one was to bring a well styled, robust and resilient bonsai with an untidy complex complementary ecosystem in the pot vs some cool bright green moss, what do might be the reception be by the judges?

So you might not want to do this if you intend to have your tree judged (perhaps I’m wrong?) unless you can convince the judges to carve out a whole new category… ecological themed bonsai.

Secondly, gathering the proper plants, mosses etc. Let alone waiting out the inevitable period of ecological succession to reach a climax community….

Yet that would be really fun to watch. Sort of like this azalea that died back and stalled in its pot for two years until I finally got some other living things to grow there

View attachment 451736
cheers
DSD sends

.

In one of the mirai streams Ryan sorta covers all this, in regards to ground cover enhancing the eco system in pots he only recommends mossing. in fact, he mixed in dried moss with dry sphagnum moss in a bag and used it as a top dress. overtime the spores from the moss cover the soil surface. Ive done this myself, kept bags of both mosses dried up and used it to top dress recently potted trees. Using moss that grows in the sun. tbf its standard stuff

ps dont forget to check under the ground cover periodically as these hiding places can harbour nasty root eating grubs and we dont want that do we

 

[Paradox]

It is absolutely the opposite. In nature, all plants compete for something. Very often, root space is limited, as are other factors. Water, sun, space, nutrients, anything.
If this were not the case, life would all be uniform grey goo that just grows exponentially, ever unchanging until it fills up the entire universe.
It is really fascinating to think about how life evolves into such a huge amount of diversity. Every species of plant you encounter evolved because it could do something better than all the other plant species that tried to compete for the same niche. Same is true for birds, fish, fungi, bacteria. You cannot understand nature, of trees, or bonsai, without trying to put things in the frame of evolution.

A plant with restricted root space definitely will try many things to overcome this. Plants not being able to observe their direct environment, or uproot and 'walk' around and plant themselves somewhere else, is a defining feature of (most) plants. And dealing with limited root space is what plants have been trying ever since they evolved roots, stems and leaves. That's about 380 million years of finding different strategies to deal with limited root space. Either overcoming it, accepting it & compensating for it, etc.
Which is why there are some amazing trees that somehow were able to grow at really unlikely places. And these inspired bonsai for sure.
There mechanisms of course still play a role for a bonsai in a pot. Hence indeed it curls roots around the pot and/or pushes the plant out of the pot.
You can see that even in nature, a plant lifting itself out of a rock crevice, exposing itself more and more to air, could also turn out to be bad for this individual plant.

Sorry but there is no way a tree in nature is more constricted or controlled by environmental factors than a tree in a pot.

There factors that effect growth and survival, sure but it's nothing compared to the control we exert on our bonsai.

A tree in nature still has many many times more space for root growth that a bonsai in a pot will never have. It will also have much more potential for growth even with competition from other plants. Yes there will be some that lose that competition.
Competition with other plants is probably the one thing a bonsai doesn't have as a restrictive factor, but this is sort of beside the point.

My bonsai will never be 100 feet tall unless I allow it to. It won't survive at all unless I water it.

It's a huge difference

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Mosses aid the retention of humidity in otherwise open substrates. They build up a layer of fine organic matter that i believe acts as a filter. Water flows easily through, but does not easily evaporate out. Clover (not sorel) is nitrogen fixing, so I leave it in the pots. I remove grasses and other broadleaf weeds.

I too feel that we need to define what is meant by "sustainable". What is the goal by seeking something sustainable? Are we talking about maintaining an environment which you can leave indefinitely with no ammendment? If so, Dan Robinson has struck a good balance with his lack of repots. But my understanding is that as trees get older, the need for repots reduces. Young trees that are vigorous putting out lots of roots simply need to be unpotted, repotted, etc.

Truly sustainable would be, in my opinion, a tree in a pot, which required zero attention. That just is not physically or biologically possible by all our knowledge.

 

[ShadyStump]

Are there any mosses/short tufts of growth that would perform in the same way as a cover crop?

Clover (not sorel) is nitrogen fixing, so I leave it in the pots.

Other low growing weeds may perform similarly. I really just need to do the research here myself. Trailing and/or flowering types would actually be an aesthetic benefit. Creeping thyme comes to mind, but I'm uncertain of it's microbiome benefits.

The real key factor in finding companion plants suitable for bonsai is the rooting habit. There's plenty of info on companion planting for container gardening where flowers and vegetables are concerned, but something that's shallow rooting is required for bonsai.
Given the arguments made already that repotting of some sort is going to be an occasional necessity, fast growing also becomes a requirement. Even if it's possible to leave a mature tree in one pot for many many years, we're still left with the task of getting it to that stage, which again begs the question; how are we defining sustainable?

I wouldn't say, "hands off," is the true definition, but minimized invasion of the ecosystem such that impact is negligible might be workable.

 

[Glaucus]

Sorry but there is no way a tree in nature is more constricted or controlled by environmental factors than a tree in a pot.

There factors that effect growth and survival, sure but it's nothing compared to the control we exert on our bonsai.

A tree in nature still has many many times more space for root growth that a bonsai in a pot will never have. It will also have much more potential for growth even with competition from other plants. Yes there will be some that lose that competition.
Competition with other plants is probably the one thing a bonsai doesn't have as a restrictive factor, but this is sort of beside the point.

My bonsai will never be 100 feet tall unless I allow it to. It won't survive at all unless I water it.

It's a huge difference

You do realize that the average acorn tree produces about 10 million acorns during it's life (seems like the commonly cited amount but that I couldn't find sources properly). And that out of those 10 million, on average only 1 of those 10 million will become an acorn-bearing tree itself? The other nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine acorns don't make it. Because if that were not true, the number of trees would be ever increasing.
You are looking at the 1 in 10 million that makes it, and you assume that there are no restrictions.

So it is probably the other way around. Trees in nature fight incredible odds to become a tree. While in the nursery industry, we basically try to guarantee to all that they get what they need to grow. In nature, conditions almost always restrict almost all plants. In culture, they are almost never restricted. We actively try to go out of our way to make sure this doesn't happen. Even in bonsai. We repot trees that are becoming pot-bound.

Of course, on average the conditions a tree faces in nature are very different from the average bonsai.

Apparently, Dan Robinson is an exception to bonsai. It would be interesting to find out how his trees do not get pot bound, circle around their roots, or push themselves out of the pot.
A tree growing in a pot definitely is a specific type of restriction that would be somewhat rare, but not impossible to find, in nature. But many plants grow in thin layers of soil on top of rocks. But it is very clear that having root growth constricted by limited space is one of the main challenges trees evolved to overcome. If a tree is in a pot, there is no physical way for the roots to ever escape, unless the pot breaks. And in nature, being given a repot is basically not possible either, beyond very rare events were trees are uprooted and the deposited elsewhere. So I don't see how you can say that nature learns us plants need a repot.

That your bonsai don't get 100 feet tall is a different discussion altogether. And the small stature of bonsai is exactly what happens in nature as well. Many trees do get a spot to grow and become very old. But they do not have the conditions to become large enough to produce acorns. But the tree just tries to do its best and get there anyway, even though it is physically impossible. The difference between natural bonsai and human bonsai would usually be that we humans do allow for ideal growth, and then come in and prune it back to keep it smaller. While nature doesn't usually prune, only allows for ideal growth at the very young tree stage. And then nature makes a tree 'quasi pot-bound' and never provides it with a repot.

 

[ShadyStump]

I think this debate between @Paradox and @Glaucus is really just a highlight of the nature of the discussion.
Differences and similarities between trees in nature and trees in pots, and what we can learn to make trees in pots better.

Undeniably, trees in nature are, as a general rule, confronted with few restrictions, but yet confronted with more challenges to survival. As Glaucus just pointed out, there are umpteen roadblocks to a seed becoming a mature tree, and that horticulture actively seeks to remove those. Paradox is also correct in pointing out that the constrictive nature of life in a pot is not like the conditions the tree faces in nature.

We've got a good grasp on the differences, so let's itemize the similarities between a healthy mature tree in nature, and a healthy mature tree in a pot.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

If the question is still how to make them thrice . Them climate can not be understated or as it is ignored . From the standpoint that we can make up the difference . Trees have spent thousands of years to get used to or maximize there use of a specific climate . When we change those variables even slightly . We instantly are playing catch up . I think there is a lot more we don’t know . That is not appreciated . We change variables drastically as if it’s nothing . We take the Yamadori out of mountains . Change its altitude light levels length of day air movement . Orientation to the sun . We claim to give it better conditions . By putting it in better soil water it better feed it better . Give it pest and desease resistance help change its growth. Habit wound bend . And to top it off we change its consistency let it grow to develops then try to restrain it in refinement We change so much so often ideal conditions are impossible . So ultimately it’s a balancing act . Of what we are trying to achieve . Think of the compromise we make before and after a tree is show worthy . The only thing I have learned is most things we do will have better results if we slow down . Compare time in Japan there are bonsai masterpieces that have been inapot for hundreds of years . In the west . Any tree ina pot for 50 years is a amazing tree . Even 25 of 35 year old trees in a pot are very nice so when we say ideal conditions to make them thrive . Are we really saying speed up the process to get to the end game . Or are we fidgeting to enjoy the journey

 

[Paradox]

@Glaucus
We arent talking about growing from seeds here. We are discussing what it takes to maintain a tree in a pot. A tree in a pot has WAY more control and restrictions over its life than a tree in nature will ever have. It is non negotiable to me so we will have to agree to disagree.

I've heard other bonsai professionals discuss how Dan Robinson does not repot often if ever and it usually revolves around how unhealthy and/or bad many of his trees look because of it. There is the possibility that this might also be in combination with whatever else he might not be doing that we typically do for our trees.

 

[Glaucus]

@Glaucus
We arent talking about growing from seeds here. We are discussing what it takes to maintain a tree in a pot. A tree in a pot has WAY more control and restrictions over its life than a tree in nature will ever have. It is non negotiable to me so we will have to agree to disagree.

I've heard other bonsai professionals discuss how Dan Robinson does not repot often if ever and it usually revolves around how unhealthy and/or bad many of his trees look because of it. There is the possibility that this might also be in combination with whatever else he might not be doing that we typically do for our trees.

You are missing the point completely. You can't say that 'we aren't talking about growing from seeds'. Every tree is a seed first, then a sapling, then a young tree, etc. Their genes have been sculpted by hundreds of millions of years of evolution to try to navigate the extremely small odds of survival a tree has. This completely determines what a tree even is. Your bonsai is 100% affected by this huge struggle where almost every seedling or young tree doesn't make it. The odds of survival of a plant in nature are way way way smaller than one in a bonsai pot.

You have a huge survival bias because you observe huge mature trees . And those trees that you observe are the ones that made it. You see a huge tree that has plenty of space to grow. You assume it had unrestricted growth much better than your bonsai. But what you do not see is that during it's lifetime, there were hundreds or thousands of competing seedlings and small trees that died growing alongside this huge tree that you are now looking at.
If you have ever looked at a cleared area in a forest, that is rejuvinating, with young new seedlings are growing en masse, and compare it with a mature forest, you will see what I mean.
Once a tree has made it to be several decades old, and it is ready to fruit, it does have a life of abundance, yes. That is exactly the point. Then it doesn't really matter anymore what it does then. It has plenty of light, water, taken up a huge area of space, etc. Then it just has to cash in and try to produce as many seeds as possible, just to try to produce enough of them so at least one of them is also as lucky as this mature tree.

Your bonsai cannot magically know that it is not part of this 100 million year struggle, but now in a controlled bonsai pot environment.
Maybe a tree does have a way to ID which stage of life it is in? If it is facing challenges and restrictions or sunlight, water, root space, and adjusts it's metabolism and growth based on that. Which I think is not something that a lot is known about.
Non-negotiable? What?

 

[Cajunrider]

Sustainable Bonsai attributes

The ability of a bonsai (tree-pot-media) system to demonstrate robust and resilient growth given basic hobbyist care consistent with the species being trained. (Examples of basic needs: Sun, water, appropriate media, ready access to: O2, nutrients & appropriate container/location/climatic adjustments)

Robust

• Continuous healthy growth of bonsai roots, stems, branches and leaves consistent with a bonsai’s stage of development
• Dependable indicators of a healthy rhizosphere shown by bonsai tree growth & ability to sustain growth on/in media. (i.e. microbial, moss, companion plant growth…succulents - other types of short rooted plants.)

Resilient

• Ability of bonsai system to respond positively to physical (normal bonsai developmental processes), climatic (including winter, not acts of god) and pest/fungal/etc (ward off &/or withstand) disturbances.

That's all for now folks!

Cheers
DSD sends

Excellent attribute descriptions.

I am happy to see the statement on the "Consistent with a bonsai's stage of development". Most of us here know the horticultural requirement for trees to thrive. However, bonsai is living art and not trees in their natural environment. So for me sustainable bonsai attributes greatly depend on the stage of development of a bonsai. For a bonsai in development, I'd like to make the conditions suitable for the growth rate I'd like to see. If I am trunk building, bring on the growth; if I am building ramification, slow and steady is what I want. If a tree is well styled and developed to the level I want, I just want the tree to be healthy with reserves to response to unplanned mishap but the growth is as slow as feasible.

I am a noob to this living art so my knowledge is limited to what I have read, watched, and learned from books, videos, classes, and discussions plus what I have experiences with the species of trees I have. So pretty much right now for me, I cannot speak beyond live oak, bald cypress, Mayhaw, and a few exotic plants

 

[dacoontz]

I agree that stage of development is certainly a key factor but the overall question of sustainability varies so much on your specific growing/environmental conditions.

One thing I’m not sure I’ve seen mentioned is water pH. This makes a big difference on long term tree health, stage of development, and depending on your source has ramifications on what you may choose for fertilizer.

Also for moss, different professionals seem for it and against it. I don’t believe Bjorn intentionally covers his trees in moss unless prepping for show, but don’t quote me on that. Granted I’d assume Tennessee has fairly high humidity. By the way, I use an old food processor to blend sphagnum and dried moss.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Great discussion folks and some really nice points throughout!

There are several intriguing concepts spinning off the central thread that seem important to discuss that I really want to respond to separately

But it seems things could go far astray if we get too hung up on these and our own positions. Can we please try be tough on the issues when sharing, but not on each other? We are all trying to puzzle out a somewhat sticky issue here, something we do day after day and are all good at. btw This isn't meant to be offputting to any specific person(s) here. As a fact, I have to say this to myself alot! Just ask my better half!

Back to sustainable bonsai. I was re-reading all of your posts over the past couple days and have a couple thoughts about trees in pots and sustainability.

So what is sustainable bonsai? Folks seem rightly puzzled by this term. So I did some research of this.

From studies of the field of forest ecology, the crux of sustainability implies "availability of a good or service(s) for future generations."

• Having healthy forests forever is implied, but it seems more of goal then something forever. Witness the super hot massive forest fires now ravaging multiple continents.

I think we can all agree what we are ultimately trying to do with bonsai is similar... "to create living works of art that will be enjoyed by present and future generations." The history of bonsai in many countries seems to bear this out.

This can be interpreted as enjoyment of bonsai for a large group of people over the generations, or just one or two each generation and the same for succeeding generations.

• For example: My wife and I get intense enjoyment after spending a day being with or working on trees whether they are at the Pacific Bonsai Museum, with PSBA club members or in our own backyard.

Back to forests. Penn State says Sustainable forestry is about caring for and managing forests to provide the natural resources, such as wood and clean water, we need now and in the future.

So working off of this to the field of bonsai I came up with a draft definition for bonsai for people to think about and comment on.

Sustainable bonsai is the discipline of caring for and managing (in an environmentally responsible way?) a bonsai ​

- in a way that will yield a healthy, robust bonsai system, ​

- which responds with resiliency to the rigors of bonsai practice, ​

- to create a work of living art for the enjoyment of present and future generations.​

Ok, signing off now and I'll leave this open for your discussion.

Cheers
DSD sends

​

 

[Paradox]

You are missing the point completely. You can't say that 'we aren't talking about growing from seeds'. Every tree is a seed first, then a sapling, then a young tree, etc. Their genes have been sculpted by hundreds of millions of years of evolution to try to navigate the extremely small odds of survival a tree has. This completely determines what a tree even is. Your bonsai is 100% affected by this huge struggle where almost every seedling or young tree doesn't make it. The odds of survival of a plant in nature are way way way smaller than one in a bonsai pot.

You have a huge survival bias because you observe huge mature trees . And those trees that you observe are the ones that made it. You see a huge tree that has plenty of space to grow. You assume it had unrestricted growth much better than your bonsai. But what you do not see is that during it's lifetime, there were hundreds or thousands of competing seedlings and small trees that died growing alongside this huge tree that you are now looking at.
If you have ever looked at a cleared area in a forest, that is rejuvinating, with young new seedlings are growing en masse, and compare it with a mature forest, you will see what I mean.
Once a tree has made it to be several decades old, and it is ready to fruit, it does have a life of abundance, yes. That is exactly the point. Then it doesn't really matter anymore what it does then. It has plenty of light, water, taken up a huge area of space, etc. Then it just has to cash in and try to produce as many seeds as possible, just to try to produce enough of them so at least one of them is also as lucky as this mature tree.

Your bonsai cannot magically know that it is not part of this 100 million year struggle, but now in a controlled bonsai pot environment.
Maybe a tree does have a way to ID which stage of life it is in? If it is facing challenges and restrictions or sunlight, water, root space, and adjusts it's metabolism and growth based on that. Which I think is not something that a lot is known about.
Non-negotiable? What?

You are likewise missing my point and we are talking in circles.

It's a matter of control on environment and degrees of restrictions to growth.

The fact that the forest tree got to 100 feet tall is because it's growth was much less controlled and restricted than a tree in a pot. Yes there was competition, yes it might have faced years of drought. Those do control growth somewhat. It might not have grown as fast as it could have but it won that fight and reached potential growth, size, height that a bonsai will never see unless it's removed from its pot and planted in the ground.

Trees grown in tree farms have greater growth than a bonsai or a forest tree because the competition is eliminated and they are spaced perfectly out in the field with lots of space, watered regularly, and allowed to grow largely unrestricted until they are pulled out of the ground. Yes there is control over their growth but less restrictions. Their conditions are controlled to promote rapid growth.

I would agree that a seedling is more like the farm tree until it gets put into a bonsai pot and moves to the prebonsai stage of development.

A bonsai tree in a pot has more restrictions on its growth than both the forest tree and the tree farm tree because we exert different control on its environment. We put it in a pot which limits the size of the roots. We cut and prune its branches which restricts its growth even more.

I will never agree that a forest tree has more restrictions on its growth than a tree in a pot grown for bonsai.

I am done debating this with you as this is derailing the discussion. Just agree to disagree and move the discussion forward with the points in the post above this one as requested by Deep Sea Diver

 

[Paradox]

Thank you for clarifying what you're asking @Deep Sea Diver.

I want to give it more thought with that in mind

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Great discussion folks and some really nice points throughout!

There are several intriguing concepts spinning off the central thread that seem important to discuss that I really want to respond to separately

But it seems things could go far astray if we get too hung up on these and our own positions. Can we please try be tough on the issues when sharing, but not on each other? We are all trying to puzzle out a somewhat sticky issue here, something we do day after day and are all good at. btw This isn't meant to be offputting to any specific person(s) here. As a fact, I have to say this to myself alot! Just ask my better half!

Back to sustainable bonsai. I was re-reading all of your posts over the past couple days and have a couple thoughts about trees in pots and sustainability.

So what is sustainable bonsai? Folks seem rightly puzzled by this term. So I did some research of this.

From studies of the field of forest ecology, the crux of sustainability implies "availability of a good or service(s) for future generations."

• Having healthy forests forever is implied, but it seems more of goal then something forever. Witness the super hot massive forest fires now ravaging multiple continents.

I think we can all agree what we are ultimately trying to do with bonsai is similar... "to create living works of art that will be enjoyed by present and future generations." The history of bonsai in many countries seems to bear this out.

This can be interpreted as enjoyment of bonsai for a large group of people over the generations, or just one or two each generation and the same for succeeding generations.

• For example: My wife and I get intense enjoyment after spending a day being with or working on trees whether they are at the Pacific Bonsai Museum, with PSBA club members or in our own backyard.

Back to forests. Penn State says Sustainable forestry is about caring for and managing forests to provide the natural resources, such as wood and clean water, we need now and in the future.

So working off of this to the field of bonsai I came up with a draft definition for bonsai for people to think about and comment on.

Sustainable bonsai is the discipline of caring for and managing (in an environmentally responsible way?) a bonsai ​

- in a way that will yield a healthy, robust bonsai system, ​

- which responds with resiliency to the rigors of bonsai practice, ​

- to create a work of living art for the enjoyment of present and future generations.​

Ok, signing off now and I'll leave this open for your discussion.

Cheers
DSD sends

​

Now we are talking! We have some sort of a framework to work within now. I like the draft definition. Its workable for me. I too will think on it.

 

[ShadyStump]

THAT guy again.

Define, "bonsai system."
Are we talking the tree-pot-soil microcosm, or this and the complete practices of maintaining bonsai?
I assume the former, the later being pursuant to it and thus the ultimate direction of the conversation, but my inner litigator demands absolute clarity.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

THAT guy again.

Define, "bonsai system."
Are we talking the tree-pot-soil microcosm, or this and the complete practices of maintaining bonsai?
I assume the former, the later being pursuant to it and thus the ultimate direction of the conversation, but my inner litigator demands absolute clarity.

No worries

Consider the sections we’ve discussed as two interlocking pieces.

Sustainable bonsai is the discipline of caring for and managing (in an environmentally responsible way?) a bonsai
in a way that will yield a healthy, robust bonsai system, which responds with resiliency to the rigors of bonsai practice,
to create a work of living art for the enjoyment of present and future generations.

Sustainable Bonsai attributes

The ability of a bonsai (tree-pot-media) system to demonstrate robust and resilient growth given basic hobbyist care consistent with the species being trained. (Examples of basic needs: Sun, water, appropriate media, ready access to: O2, nutrients & appropriate container/location/climatic adjustments)

Robust

• Continuous healthy growth of bonsai roots, stems, branches and leaves consistent with a bonsai’s stage of development
• Dependable indicators of a healthy rhizosphere shown by bonsai tree growth & ability to sustain growth on/in media. (i.e. microbial, moss, companion plant growth…succulents - other types of short rooted plants.)

Resilient

• Ability of bonsai system to respond positively to physical (normal bonsai developmental processes), climatic (including winter, not acts of god) and pest/fungal/etc (ward off &/or withstand) disturbances.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[August44]

Mosses aid the retention of humidity in otherwise open substrates. They build up a layer of fine organic matter that i believe acts as a filter. Water flows easily through, but does not easily evaporate out. Clover (not sorel) is nitrogen fixing, so I leave it in the pots. I remove grasses and other broadleaf weeds.

I too feel that we need to define what is meant by "sustainable". What is the goal by seeking something sustainable? Are we talking about maintaining an environment which you can leave indefinitely with no ammendment? If so, Dan Robinson has struck a good balance with his lack of repots. But my understanding is that as trees get older, the need for repots reduces. Young trees that are vigorous putting out lots of roots simply need to be unpotted, repotted, etc.

Truly sustainable would be, in my opinion, a tree in a pot, which required zero attention. That just is not physically or biologically possible by all our knowledge.

Sorry Orion, I don't agree with you last statement at all. If my neighbor was you and I asked you what a sustainable environment would be for my pine bonsai that I have, that is just like your wonderful pine of the same species, I would assume you would talk to me about soils, sun light, fertilizer, AND water. The tree would not survive without most of the things I mentioned, especially water. If it dies because of the lack of water we will say, then the environment is not sustainable (tree died) for the pine. Webster definition: Sustain..."to give support or relief to".

 

[ShadyStump]

To make things clear for anyone not quite following, the discussion is aiming to identify and, to an extent, itemize the factors inherent to providing adequate sustenance (sustain being the root word of the topic) to bonsai.
We're not necessarily looking to identify or create any new fangled methods or techniques, but to make the, frankly put, incredibly complex interconnected phenomenon involved clear, and do so in the most concise and understandable manner possible.

Perhaps a mission statement for the discussion would keep us from getting derailed.