What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

[Ugo]

That’s a good point.

Climate might be considered a “Meta” element. Almost a consideration just to get a tree into the gate to one’s property.

It’s a more variable then one might think, after all there are redwoods on the street in NYC.

More directly to the point, Ryan Neal has been working to push the limit on climate constraints…. for example determining the key times to do specific activities to Mountain Hemlocks so these trees can thrive in areas folks never thought they’d be able to live previously.

Referring back to the thread title, I’m reminded the goal is to look at “best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive.

At this point the discussion has turned to focus on what elements are needed to for bonsai trees to thrive.

I think it’s worth trying to refocus the thread back to ways of creating sustainable conditions for bonsai trees to thrive in…

Cheers
DSD sends

Yes exactly!
I was about to answer @19Mateo83 and saw your post.
It resume my idea, horticultiraly I found it very rewarding when Im able to adapt the environment so the tree can actually maintain a good amount of energy even during the winter months so for sure it will not thrive as it would if it was in for example a tropical region for a ficus, but I see some kind of great achievement and even pushing futher more the boudaries of bonsai and horticulture when one is able for example to get a highly ramified ficus in the Northern hemisphere.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Survivable climate, environment with proper Sun for each tree and air movement without strong wind exposure keeps trees on bench without undue drying or foliage dessication.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

What exactly do you mean with sustainable @Deep Sea Diver ?
Maybe it's the language barrier but I'm able to interpret in multiple ways.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

What exactly do you mean with sustainable @Deep Sea Diver ?
Maybe it's the language barrier but I'm able to interpret in multiple ways.

I agree - I am a little confused about the question.

I would normally consider "sustainable" as being "ever-lasting", whereas I don't think of any small captive environment as being truly sustainable, at least within the context of what we do with bonsai. I wouldn't consider any of the trees in your examples as being in sustainable situations - they will all require care and repotting; some look like they could use it now (in my opinion). The best example I can think of of what I consider "most sustainable" would be a yamadori in the wild, growing in a rock crack in the mountains, where the roots have expanded as much as they physically can, the foliage is in balance and will grow no farther, and the tree just sits there for hundreds of years (like an old mountain juniper or bristlecone pine).

The "most sustainable" environment I can think of consists of:

(1) Good sun and clean air.
(2) Good water.
(3) Inorganic substrate of the right piece size, with rough edges and plenty of void space.
(4) Organic fertilization.

Which more or less perfectly describes conditions of the mountain junipers and pines I mention above.

 

[Paradox]

I agree with @Bonsai Nut. I am also a bit confused about the question.

I also don't believe any tree in a pot is sustainable without the care he describes.

A pine in potting soil probably won't be sustainable, but one in open inorganic mix is.

I'll add on top of that what @19Mateo83 said about climate and environment.

I keep Brazilian rain trees and ficus here in the great frozen north. If don't provide them with the proper environment over winter, they will die rather quickly.

You create sustainable conditions for bonsai by providing a proper environment, proper soil for the roots, sun, water, fertilizer, and care at the proper time.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You create sustainable conditions for bonsai by providing a proper environment, proper soil for the roots, sun, water, fertilizer, and care at the proper time.

Yes, when I think more broadly about the question, what a plant needs for sustainability is perhaps slightly different from the mechanism by which it receives it.

All trees need access to water and fertilizer, and their roots need oxygen to survive. But if you consider the mechanisms used by bald cypress, sugar maple, or stone pine, they all have slightly different mechanisms to obtain them. The "optimal" environment will be one they evolved in which to occupy... and what they might find optimal will kill another. They each have an environmental niche which is favorable to them, but potentially harmful (or at least unfavorable) to competitors.

 

[Mikecheck123]

If by sustainable you mean the ability to withstand disasters, it's all about strong roots.

All trees can grow in ideal conditions. Like Tolstoy said, "All happy trees are alike."

But it's another question when something goes wrong. Watering lapse, cold snap, heat wave. Surviving those is far more important to sustainability than maintaining an ideal environment 100% of the time, which isn't realistic.

The trees that survive disaster all have one thing in common: a meticulously cultivated mass of roots.

It's very possible to grow rather large trees with weak roots. Such trees die the fastest in adverse conditions.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thank you for the replies everyone! I really appreciate everyone's efforts to push this effort forward.

There are some really good points here and these responses, taken together, each have given me things to think about this past morning.

I noticed many of the points mentioned were abiotic and other factors required for robust growth (Sun, water, nutrients, physical location etc). Some were biotic indicators which were descriptors of what a sustainable bonsai would look like. (fresh green needles/leaves, strong roots.) These were all spot on.

@Bonsai Nut mentioned species nuances which was very helpful.

So what was is my goal? To put together a coherent, hopefully short, description of sustainable bonsai attributes that can be viewed by new folks and experienced folks over time. Hopefully as a guide, certainly thought provoking in any event.

As I was thinking about your responses I was reminded of the stories Professor Jerry Franklin used to tell us about the "Gang of Four". Jerry was a member of the gang that created the first Northwest Forestry Protection Plan. This effort is certainly nothing close to that consequential, but I believe it could, at least, be important for folks to think about.

Here's what I came up with as a first effort. Please let me know what you think.

Sustainable Bonsai attributes

The ability of a bonsai (tree-pot-media) system to demonstrate robust and resilient growth given basic hobbyist care consistent with the species being trained. (Examples of basic needs: Sun, water, appropriate media, ready access to: O2, nutrients & appropriate container/location/climatic adjustments)

Robust

• Continuous healthy growth of bonsai roots, stems, branches and leaves consistent with a bonsai’s stage of development
• Dependable indicators of a healthy rhizosphere shown by bonsai tree growth & ability to sustain growth on/in media. (i.e. microbial, moss, companion plant growth…succulents - other types of short rooted plants.)

Resilient

• Ability of bonsai system to respond positively to physical (normal bonsai developmental processes), climatic (including winter, not acts of god) and pest/fungal/etc (ward off &/or withstand) disturbances.

That's all for now folks!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[ShadyStump]

I am loving this project!
Learning lots. Keep it going.

 

[August44]

Some time ago I heard a rumor (or report) that Dan Robinson never repots any of his trees...trees that have been in the same pot for 30, 40, 50+ years. I've never been Elandan Gardens but from the pictures online, and in his book, his trees all look very healthy. When deciding whether to repot a tree or not I have this information in the back of my mind and I usually end up leaving the tree unrepotted for another year. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, and since you've been there, how do the trees look? Does he have to do something to compensate for the fact that he doesn't repot? Is this an underutilized hack?

That is hard to imagine for me that he does not repot. How does he deal with root growth that builds up in a pot. Maybe really slows down on fertilizer.

 

[Glaucus]

Seems definitely possible to never repot. Nature doesn't repot either. Trees evolved to survive the specific challenges offered to them by nature. Trees go from being seeds, to germinating in a (hopefully) promising location with plenty of light, water and soil to grow. The tree can freely grow and become larger. Until some environmental factor starts limiting it (in the case of actual potted bonsai or bonsai-like trees in nature). And then the tree approaches some equilibrium state where it basically only grows to maintain its current size.

Our usual bonsai technique seems to be one of pruning, repotting into fresh substrate, followed by a rejuvenation cycle, followed by a pruning/shaping treatment. So in that case, the bonsai does not reach this end state where growth becomes limiting. Such trees may be perfectly healthy, despite not showing vigorous growth. It also makes some sense that the tree has a biochemical mechanism to 'know' what kind of condition it is in, and what type of growth and metabolism it needs to attempt for long-term well-being.

As for bonsai being 'sustainable', I think a case can be made that bonsai are not 'sustainable'. They require specific care from a skilled person, and even then there is still a risk. Bonsai aren't forever.

 

[Paradox]

Seems definitely possible to never repot. Nature doesn't repot either. Trees evolved to survive the specific challenges offered to them by nature. Trees go from being seeds, to germinating in a (hopefully) promising location with plenty of light, water and soil to grow. The tree can freely grow and become larger. Until some environmental factor starts limiting it (in the case of actual potted bonsai or bonsai-like trees in nature). And then the tree approaches some equilibrium state where it basically only grows to maintain its current size.

Our usual bonsai technique seems to be one of pruning, repotting into fresh substrate, followed by a rejuvenation cycle, followed by a pruning/shaping treatment. So in that case, the bonsai does not reach this end state where growth becomes limiting. Such trees may be perfectly healthy, despite not showing vigorous growth. It also makes some sense that the tree has a biochemical mechanism to 'know' what kind of condition it is in, and what type of growth and metabolism it needs to attempt for long-term well-being.

As for bonsai being 'sustainable', I think a case can be made that bonsai are not 'sustainable'. They require specific care from a skilled person, and even then there is still a risk. Bonsai aren't forever.

Trees in nature aren't in pots that restrict root growth. They have unlimited area for root extension there is no need to repot.

A tree in a pot will continue to make roots and will eventually push itself up out of the pot if the roots are not periodically trimmed.

There is nothing natural about a bonsai in a pot. We humans control every aspect of that tree's life. We do work with the natural seasonal cycles of growth but we manipulate how the tree grows to keep it small. If we didn't, the tree would try to do what trees want to do: grow big

 

[BrianBay9]

Trees in nature aren't in pots that restrict root growth. They have unlimited area for root extension there is no need to repot.

A tree in a pot will continue to make roots and will eventually push itself up out of the pot if the roots are not periodically trimmed.

There is nothing natural about a bonsai in a pot. We humans control every aspect of that tree's life. We do work with the natural seasonal cycles of growth but we manipulate how the tree grows to keep it small. If we didn't, the tree would try to do what trees want to do: grow big

Trees in nature (not landscaping) almost always have restricted root growth. If the soil is good and water is adequate they compete with other trees in the forest. Out west they probably compete for water. In poor locations they're limited by rock, soil type, pH, soil minerals.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Thank you for the replies everyone! I really appreciate everyone's efforts to push this effort forward.

There are some really good points here and these responses, taken together, each have given me things to think about this past morning.

I noticed many of the points mentioned were abiotic and other factors required for robust growth (Sun, water, nutrients, physical location etc). Some were biotic indicators which were descriptors of what a sustainable bonsai would look like. (fresh green needles/leaves, strong roots.) These were all spot on.

@Bonsai Nut mentioned species nuances which was very helpful.

So what was is my goal? To put together a coherent, hopefully short, description of sustainable bonsai attributes that can be viewed by new folks and experienced folks over time. Hopefully as a guide, certainly thought provoking in any event.

As I was thinking about your responses I was reminded of the stories Professor Jerry Franklin used to tell us about the "Gang of Four". Jerry was a member of the gang that created the first Northwest Forestry Protection Plan. This effort is certainly nothing close to that consequential, but I believe it could, at least, be important for folks to think about.

Here's what I came up with as a first effort. Please let me know what you think.

Sustainable Bonsai attributes

The ability of a bonsai (tree-pot-media) system to demonstrate robust and resilient growth given basic hobbyist care consistent with the species being trained. (Examples of basic needs: Sun, water, appropriate media, ready access to: O2, nutrients & appropriate container/location/climatic adjustments)

Robust

• Continuous healthy growth of bonsai roots, stems, branches and leaves consistent with a bonsai’s stage of development
• Dependable indicators of a healthy rhizosphere shown by bonsai tree growth & ability to sustain growth on/in media. (i.e. microbial, moss, companion plant growth…succulents - other types of short rooted plants.)

Resilient

• Ability of bonsai system to respond positively to physical (normal bonsai developmental processes), climatic (including winter, not acts of god) and pest/fungal/etc (ward off &/or withstand) disturbances.

That's all for now folks!

Cheers
DSD sends

I still do not fully understand what you are asking. If you are looking for EXACT things that will "sustain" bonsai, you may be in the wrong hobby. Sorry, but that's my opinion. You seem to be asking that the whims of nature be corralled into a set of concrete rules. Good luck with that one. I'm not knocking you for wanting to know, but I think it is unrealistic to try to narrow it down to such specifics.

 

[Glaucus]

Trees in nature aren't in pots that restrict root growth. They have unlimited area for root extension there is no need to repot.

A tree in a pot will continue to make roots and will eventually push itself up out of the pot if the roots are not periodically trimmed.

There is nothing natural about a bonsai in a pot. We humans control every aspect of that tree's life. We do work with the natural seasonal cycles of growth but we manipulate how the tree grows to keep it small. If we didn't, the tree would try to do what trees want to do: grow big

It is absolutely the opposite. In nature, all plants compete for something. Very often, root space is limited, as are other factors. Water, sun, space, nutrients, anything.
If this were not the case, life would all be uniform grey goo that just grows exponentially, ever unchanging until it fills up the entire universe.
It is really fascinating to think about how life evolves into such a huge amount of diversity. Every species of plant you encounter evolved because it could do something better than all the other plant species that tried to compete for the same niche. Same is true for birds, fish, fungi, bacteria. You cannot understand nature, of trees, or bonsai, without trying to put things in the frame of evolution.

A plant with restricted root space definitely will try many things to overcome this. Plants not being able to observe their direct environment, or uproot and 'walk' around and plant themselves somewhere else, is a defining feature of (most) plants. And dealing with limited root space is what plants have been trying ever since they evolved roots, stems and leaves. That's about 380 million years of finding different strategies to deal with limited root space. Either overcoming it, accepting it & compensating for it, etc.
Which is why there are some amazing trees that somehow were able to grow at really unlikely places. And these inspired bonsai for sure.
There mechanisms of course still play a role for a bonsai in a pot. Hence indeed it curls roots around the pot and/or pushes the plant out of the pot.
You can see that even in nature, a plant lifting itself out of a rock crevice, exposing itself more and more to air, could also turn out to be bad for this individual plant.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Reviewing the answers to the OP's original question, I see that folks find other plants living in the pot to be a plus. I typically remove any weeds and really anything growing in the pot other than my tree. Should I not be doing this? Does allowing other things to grow in the pot improve the micro-habitat?

 

[LAS]

Reviewing the answers to the OP's original question, I see that folks find other plants living in the pot to be a plus. I typically remove any weeds and really anything growing in the pot other than my tree. Should I not be doing this? Does allowing other things to grow in the pot improve the micro-habitat?

in regular soil, growing a cover crop sequesters carbon from the air and deposits it into the soil . not sure if that is whats happening in a bonsai pot. but this is definitely my guess. and, who knows whatever else is happening.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I still do not fully understand what you are asking.

Sorry about that.

Much as I really love the simplicity of the concept that one simply tosses media and a tree in a pot, puts it in the sun, waters it and lets the tree tell one what it needs henceforth, that doesn’t seem to approach what we do. It’s a good thought though.

The steps taken so far in this discussion followed the responses which focused on narrowing down what attributes a “sustainable bonsai” might share while developing in a series of simple descriptors, or benchmarks.

In other words, the details of what a robust and resilient tree would look and act like.

Given this can be agreed upon, it will go a long way to helping hobbyists to always have a fixed idea in mind in regards to what a healthy tree would look and act while enduring the rigors of pot culture and bonsai aesthetic.

This seems to me to be realistic and totally in line with the original goal.

If you are looking for EXACT things that will "sustain" bonsai, you may be in the wrong hobby. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

Interesting. I’m sure I can’t agree with you here. But as my Mom used to tell me over 7 decades ago, “Son, everyone has a right to their own opinion…but that doesn’t make it true nor right.”

You seem to be asking that the whims of nature be corralled into a set of concrete rules. Good luck with that one. I'm not knocking you for wanting to know, but I think it is unrealistic to try to narrow it down to such specifics.

If this statement were true why would we have bonsai professionals and species oriented books trying this very thing? Masters and authors who spend their entire lives (not to mention hobbyists) to help other folks to unveil the vagaries and complexities of putting a tree into a simple pot to develop a work of art over perhaps 20-50 years time?

It is absolutely the opposite. In nature, all plants compete for something. Very often, root space is limited, as are other factors. Water, sun, space, nutrients, anything…..

Yes… and our job is to learn to overcome these natural obstacles and create wonderful works of living art.

You can see that even in nature, a plant lifting itself out of a rock crevice, exposing itself more and more to air, could also turn out to be bad for this individual plant.

I used to Think that very same thing until Dan Robinson showed me his trees breaking apart this paradigm . He opened my eyes to a whole new world.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[ShadyStump]

in regular soil, growing a cover crop sequesters carbon from the air and deposits it into the soil . not sure if that is whats happening in a bonsai pot. but this is definitely my guess. and, who knows whatever else is happening.

Cover crops can do allot more than just sequester carbon. Pretty much any legume builds a microbiome around its roots that fixes N to the soil. Buckwheat does it with P. I'm no expert so I can't tell you exactly which one does it for K, but they're out there. Others perform similar tasks for micro nutrients.
Now, in nature the soil microbiome shifts with the plants that grow from year to year, and vis versa, and affect the trees too. In a pot, we've made it hard on ourselves by eliminating any chance that nature would balance it for us; it's just too small a scale for the diversity required. However it does seem that there must be some application of the concepts that we can apply to create a more stable environment.

Hence...

Reviewing the answers to the OP's original question, I see that folks find other plants living in the pot to be a plus. I typically remove any weeds and really anything growing in the pot other than my tree. Should I not be doing this? Does allowing other things to grow in the pot improve the micro-habitat?

THIS is a really good question.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Reviewing the answers to the OP's original question, I see that folks find other plants living in the pot to be a plus. I typically remove any weeds and really anything growing in the pot other than my tree. Should I not be doing this? Does allowing other things to grow in the pot improve the micro-habitat?

It seems to for my trees, yet it depends. If we were to see a deep rooted competitor for that needs lots of water and space in our pots, it would leave in short order.

The idea of creating a complex micro ecosystem of complementary plants etc in one’s pots is intriguing to one like myself, possessing a backgound in environmental ecology.

in regular soil, growing a cover crop sequesters carbon from the air and deposits it into the soil . not sure if that is whats happening in a bonsai pot. but this is definitely my guess. and, who knows whatever else is happening.

One can be sure that this will work. I do see two issues.

First and foremost, the aesthetic. If one was to bring a well styled, robust and resilient bonsai with an untidy complex complementary ecosystem in the pot vs some cool bright green moss, what do might be the reception be by the judges?

So you might not want to do this if you intend to have your tree judged (perhaps I’m wrong?) unless you can convince the judges to carve out a whole new category… ecological themed bonsai.

Secondly, gathering the proper plants, mosses etc. Let alone waiting out the inevitable period of ecological succession to reach a climax community….

Yet that would be really fun to watch. Sort of like this azalea that died back and stalled in its pot for two years until I finally got some other living things to grow there


cheers
DSD sends

.