Unidentified J. Maple

[Steve Kudela]

And here are the new small leaves unfolding themselves under the spring sun
I feel so excited!

Here we go sorce!

Nothing like red maple leaves in the spring! No idea as to variety. Have you had a chance to check the rootage?

 

[my nellie]

... ...Have you had a chance to check the rootage?

Thank you for asking!
I did poked and grubbed on the surface and uncovered some more of the rootball, but I was intimidated to do more drastic work because the weather is already hot enough and the first root reduction was made very close in time.
If there are big roots -as you suggested they might- these must be located deeper

 

[Steve Kudela]

Thank you for asking!
I did poked and grubbed on the surface and uncovered some more of the rootball, but I was intimidated to do more drastic work because the weather is already hot enough and the first root reduction was made very close in time.
If there are big roots -as you suggested they might- these must be located deeper

It's been awhile.............I went back reread the early post about it.........................root pruned last october 2016 , am I correct? How deep is the overall rootball? When you were root pruning, did you cut any larger roots? After rereading, what I would say is feed and water that thing, let it grow all it will. I would not do any layering this season, next year if it does well. continue watching and planning................................you'll find it in due time.

 

[my nellie]

Thank you for your time.

... ...root pruned last october 2016 , am I correct?

November the 20th to be precise.​

How deep is the overall rootball?

At the time being it is almost 16-18cm. The original rootball had been something around 30cm.​

When you were root pruning, did you cut any larger roots?

No. Did not find any. Lots of thin roots, like matting.​

After rereading, what I would say is feed and water that thing, let it grow all it will. I would not do any layering this season, next year if it does well. continue watching and planning................................you'll find it in due time.

I am not at all impatient doing the layers anyhow. In any case the future new plants will not be mine, they are decided to be given away to friends. Or else I would have chopped the original tree down a lot more
However, it's a good sign that the tree is budding all over.

 

[AlainK]

Hi Alexandra,

There are so many cultivars, but if this one is not grafted and had no tag, I would just call it Acer palmatum atropurpureum dissectum

Frankly, it's not a very good species for bonsai: how many dissectum have you seen in high-level exhibits?... I mean, if very experienced bonsai artist don't do lace-leafed palmatums, there must be a reason.

I've got several Acer palmatum dissectum, but I keep them as potted trees, not bonsai.

Even here, where the climate is probably not as warm and dry, and much rainier as it can be in Greece, dissectums are a bit hard to keep until autumn, so I thnk it will be even more difficult for you in Greece: if I were you, I would consider putting it in a larger pot and enjoy it as a patio tree.

Other maple species are definitely more suited to your climate and can make very nice bonsai. I think that this one will only be frustrating if you attempt to grow it as a bonsai.

My 2 €cents' worth...

Alain

 

[petegreg]

It's quite difficult to ID not labeled palmatums. Hard to say from the pics if it's grafted.
Alain is right mentioning dissectum qualities for bonsai. But I think yours, Alexandra, is not dissectum. To me it looks like deeper lobed atropurpureum if not grafted.

 

[petegreg]

I was able to take pics today, not so sharp, it's too windy...
...two of my atropupurpureum:


...and one dissectum:

 

[my nellie]

Thanks everyboy!

It's quite difficult to ID not labeled palmatums. Hard to say from the pics if it's grafted.
Alain is right mentioning dissectum qualities for bonsai. But I think yours, Alexandra, is not dissectum. To me it looks like deeper lobed atropurpureum if not grafted.

I agree with both of you dissectum maples are not appropriate candidates for bonsai, this I also know myself.
Although my knowledge regarding maples is very limited I also know the leaves I posted are not the leaves of a dissectum or lace leaf maple.
Your description "deeper lobed" outlines exactly what those leaves are.

 

[my nellie]

Even if not a dissectum, yet the leaves are too big.

These are the first leaves to emerge.
The following ones are not as big as those, they are smaller I can say...
I don't know how well leaves can get shorter. @petegreg What is your experience?

As you can see we have also flowers

Can you give me some instructions regarding the collection of seeds? I intend to give them away to members -possibly interested- of our local club.

 

[petegreg]

I still think dissectum leaves look different...
Concerning the leaves, we can get them smaller mainly with time and increasing ramification. And I've tried many maple techniques from Peter Adam's book, pinching behind the first pair of leaves when they're at an embryo stage before they have fully opened, removing (*) "bud protective shells" with a pair of tweezers at the same time to let new shoots "dry" and slow down their elongation, using secondary branches or second flush of growth branches as new branch extentions if the internodes are shorter... Some cultivars simply react better, some worse. But for sure I'm not a maple expert, just a multi-specie hobbyist.

(*) bud protective shells - sorry, I don't know proper english expression.

 

[petegreg]

Oh and I think it's mentioned here:
http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/AcerPalmatumAdvancedGuide.htm

https://bonsaitonight.com/2017/03/07/pinching-spring-buds-japanese-maple/

http://www.stonelantern.co.za/advance-techniques-for-chinese-maples/#.WPaOa35usuo

...but these are more for later stages of our trees, not applicable if the trunks need to grow.

 

[my nellie]

Τhanks for your reply

... ......but these are more for later stages of our trees, not applicable if the trunks need to grow.

Yes, of course!
I need also to make those two or three air layers first, remember?

 

[my nellie]

Well, contrary to what @Steve Kudela suggested (and the known expressed opinion of Mr. B. Valavanis, too) I did not wait for next year and I did the airlayering.
The first one on April 28 and the second one one or two weeks later.

First a clear plastic bag. The soil is lava sand mixed with sphagnum moss.

Then wrapped with aluminum foil.

The tree with the two air-layers as of last June 19th.
The tree itself showed not a single stress sign. In fact it did give some new shoots on its trunk!
I have checked for roots two times but I cannot detect anything...
We will see

 

[AlainK]

Can you give me some instructions regarding the collection of seeds?

Seeds can be collected just after leaf fall and kept in the fridge (3-5° C) in a damp mix of perlite and peat and planted when they begin to germinate. I also collected some earlier, when the wings of the samaras had turned brown but the seed itself was still somewhat greenish-brown.

But even if the seeds are viable, they very rarely produce seedlings that are true to the original tree. They can completely revert to the plain, ghreen species, or retain some of the characteristics of the parent plants - in which case some seedlings can be interesting.

Air-layers: do you water the inside of the wrapped air-layer?...

 

[my nellie]

Thank you for the tips!

... ...Air-layers: do you water the inside of the wrapped air-layer?...

Yes, of course!
I hope this tree will not prove itself to be from those cultivars which do not airlayer (as I remember you have said before in some thread...)

 

[AlainK]

Keep your fingers crossed

I air-layered a plain Acer palmatum before it leafed out: to me, it was very unusual, I usually do it in late May, early June with a very (very) high rate of success, but my friends at the club did some in March, OK I thought.

But it failed!
Or, did it really?...

About two weeks ago, I had a closer look: roots (and even quite big ones) had developped on one side.

But that means I won't severe the air-layer from the parent tree until next spring.

I think taht were you live, or where it lives , winters are very mild. So more roots will develop, and you can separate the air-layer in late February or so.

 

[rodeolthr]

If someone hasn't already suggested it, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't a.p. 'Burgundy Lace'. I believe it belongs to the subspecies Matsumurae.....as noted by the deeply divided lobes of each leaf. I have gotten interesting seedlings from it , many of which resemble the parent. My only complaint is that they want to have long internodes unless grown under somewhat dire conditions.

 

[AlainK]

I believe it belongs to the subspecies Matsumurae.....

+1

 

[my nellie]

... ...I air-layered a plain Acer palmatum before it leafed out... ...
But it failed!
Or, did it really?...
About two weeks ago, I had a closer look: roots (and even quite big ones) had developped on one side.
But that means I won't severe the air-layer from the parent tree until next spring.
I think taht were you live, or where it lives , winters are very mild. So more roots will develop, and you can separate the air-layer in late February or so.

I am glad you had a success against every expectation, Alain! From March to August it's 5 months!
Thank you for the suggestion. This is exactly what I intend to do : wait and wait and wait more.
Perhaps I will be as lucky as you!

 

[drew33998]

Hard to say