GarlR
Mame
Ha Smoke! I thought I saw a nice tree in there too, especially with that 3D drawing.
Type and Thought of this Juniper?
- Thread starter GarlR
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You're right. The tree has a lot of potential, a great trunk with great movement and if it is Procumbens a manageable foliage type. If this tree, as it is right now, were growing on a mountain ridge it would be worth far more than $95. It's all about perception sadly, because itis not a Yamadori it must be junk.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Well for some you may be right. I would not agree as a whole though. I feel it is irresponsible to dig something from nature just for the reason of "digging it its free". To me digging a tree from nature should have the attributes that just can't be found in a tree grown by man in a generation or even two.
For me, even if this were dug in Colorado and was a Rocky Mountain Juniper its value is just not worth more than a C note to me. The tree just does not posess enough attributes to show "real" yamadorism. My feeling is if someone is digging trees that could otherwise be found in a nursery then why pillage the countryside for cheap sake.
bonsai barry
Omono
Agreed. I often wonder how many decent yamadori can still be found in Japan. There is some great potential bonsai buried in the snow of the western US at the moment. There are a lot out there, nonetheless it is a finite resource. I wish there was a yamadori code of ethics that the bonsai community could agree on. Most collectors are responsible (Andy Smith is a good example), but I would have more piece of mind purchasing a wild tree if I knew that it was harvested responsibly.
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I didn't mean to open the Yamadori door again but merely point out to double mindedness concerning this Juniper.
I agree a tree shouldn't be collected just for the sake of collecting it, it should have some artistic value to who ever collected it. However that does not address the issue of people making a living collecting trees and selling them to those who do bonsai.
october
Masterpiece
One thing that I have been seeing or at least the way it seems, is that here in the northeast, bonsai seems to command much higher prices. Seems the prices on the west coast are lower.
I saw an example of this in a thread someone posted here a few of weeks ago. They got 3 trees at an auction all for around, I believe, $500. One of the trees was a white pine. If this pine had been sold around here. Just this one tree would have sold for around $600 - $800.
When pricing trees, we need to understand that some of us are enthusiasts, others are business orientated and some are both. Although it is true that some trees seem overpriced, when you factor in business, it might not be. Generally when we see a tree, we look at it from our point of view.. So a tree that we see as worth $150, is selling for $300. Now if you had a tree that, one, you needed to make a profit on, it was how you make your living and two, you knew that in about 5 years this tree would be worth double, what would you do...
Over the last 14 years, I have realized more and more how money plays such a big part in bonsai. It can be extremely limiting and frustrating. However, this is just how it is. Just be thankful that we even have access to material, even if it is over priced. It also means that we, as consumers and bonsai enthusiasts, just have to search a bit harder. We should continuously strive to expand our bonsai education. In turn, ths allows us to be able to find that 1 gem amongst 1000 sub par material trees and have the knowledge to do something with it.
Rob
I saw an example of this in a thread someone posted here a few of weeks ago. They got 3 trees at an auction all for around, I believe, $500. One of the trees was a white pine. If this pine had been sold around here. Just this one tree would have sold for around $600 - $800.
When pricing trees, we need to understand that some of us are enthusiasts, others are business orientated and some are both. Although it is true that some trees seem overpriced, when you factor in business, it might not be. Generally when we see a tree, we look at it from our point of view.. So a tree that we see as worth $150, is selling for $300. Now if you had a tree that, one, you needed to make a profit on, it was how you make your living and two, you knew that in about 5 years this tree would be worth double, what would you do...
Over the last 14 years, I have realized more and more how money plays such a big part in bonsai. It can be extremely limiting and frustrating. However, this is just how it is. Just be thankful that we even have access to material, even if it is over priced. It also means that we, as consumers and bonsai enthusiasts, just have to search a bit harder. We should continuously strive to expand our bonsai education. In turn, ths allows us to be able to find that 1 gem amongst 1000 sub par material trees and have the knowledge to do something with it.
Rob
elliott
Yamadori
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I would say about 50 or 60 bucks (this is what you would have to pay me to take it)LOL !
It could be a hollywood juniper, juniperous torolusa.
Yes, if your good, and applied some good technique, you can make something that a newbie would like, but there is so much out there that is better, why bother? plant it in the ground in some weird angle, step on the trunk untill you hear a crack, and see what it looks like to someone in 30 years, it might be a "c" tree by then.
As far as living inside, I don't know of any conifer that will thrive inside, You might get some to barely live for a while, but as Ryan Neil told me "a bonsai is either thriving, or it's dying"
especialy a California that is used to abnormaly hi amounts of UVB light and severe temp and humidity changes several times a day.
I noticed that alot of those "inside bonsai" books, especialy the early ones, are full of crap about how a particular specie will do inside. Most of even those say bring the tree outside in good weather. I think those books are trying to exploit newbies who want a nice tree sitting on top of there cable box while they fast forward thru the nude scenes during Game of thrones on HBO.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
It is necessary that we engage in a bit of realism here. Not everyone can work with Yamadori trees for several reasons. One is that these trees are not available to everyone at a price they can afford to pay. Another is that Yamadori are simply not available at any price. Yet another, the budding bonsai artist is simply not ready for Yamadori trees. So what is it you expect them to do? Go to their local bonsai nursery?
Those facilities are not on every street corner in every town, State or region across America. Some of those, that are in business, are of questionable competence or their business practices are questionable. Bonsai clubs are not available every where so getting help and advise from experienced people is not always an option.
This particular tree is far from perfect but on the other hand it is far better than a lot of things we see posted here from time to time, in fact it is better than most. It has some pretty good options that with the proper technique could be made into a pretty nice bonsai in a couple of years. The statement that this would be a "C" tree for Ryan Neil is probably accurate as far as he is personally concerned with his own collection, but I think he would jump on this tree like a skunk on a June bug at a work shop. If you are one of those who cannot see the potential in this tree I would suggest you need to work harder.
I guess the original question remains: Is this tree worth what was paid? From my experience I have seen more paid for a tree with less potential.
edprocoat
Masterpiece
Since I posted on the first page of this thread that I liked the tree I have to add after reading some of the price estimations I have seen in this thread. First off, $20.00 ? That pot and a Juni whip would be worth $20.00 . I still think its a nice looking tree. I wonder what the dimensions of this tree is, it looks to have great movement and taper in the trunk, the trunk by the way looks aged too. Stood up as in that virtual and those branches pulled back in and twisted a little like Rob does with his stuff and that tree would be stunning. I would bet even with that lower branch removed and the upper branch pulled back down a bit it would make a great Literati style tree.
I would say $95.00 is a fair price, I have seen stuff like this go for a lot more. With a nice styling I doubt many would say its not worth $200.00.
ed
I would say $95.00 is a fair price, I have seen stuff like this go for a lot more. With a nice styling I doubt many would say its not worth $200.00.
ed
elliott
Yamadori
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Vance
I see the potential in this tree, and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but for me personaly, I just don't WANT any trees like that. I'm not gonna lower my aesthetic cause yours is or someone else has paid more for less quality ( or no quality), or cause somebody does not have access or the money for better stuff.
Your correct however, I do need to try harder and I do. I'm going to Japan in Feb to see the Kokufu show and visit some nurseries my bonsai teacher will show me. Since I am a Per diem employee with no vacation pay and less than part time hours, I have had to sell some trees I realy love plus some other personel things I love ( including "the Rock, my puppy dog tame cyclura iguana that I have had from a hatchling 18 years ago, it's my avatar on this forum) to go on this trip because I know it will make me just a little better at bonsai.
And yes, Ryan would jump on this like a june bug on a whatever your example was, but I know he would love to spend his time on better material. Ryan is at the point that he has more work than he can possibly do, and may start to pick and choose the groups he works with on what they bring to the table for their potential to improve bonsai in the USA.
I Just not gonna lower my standard on what somone else thinks. Period. The question was what I would pay for that, and I made a joke to let people know that it wouldn't be very much at all.
Vance, I don't care where you live or how much $ you have, if you try hard enough, like you suggest, you can come up with something better than that stick. I had lot's of sticks like that when I first started, but not anymore.
I see the potential in this tree, and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but for me personaly, I just don't WANT any trees like that. I'm not gonna lower my aesthetic cause yours is or someone else has paid more for less quality ( or no quality), or cause somebody does not have access or the money for better stuff.
Your correct however, I do need to try harder and I do. I'm going to Japan in Feb to see the Kokufu show and visit some nurseries my bonsai teacher will show me. Since I am a Per diem employee with no vacation pay and less than part time hours, I have had to sell some trees I realy love plus some other personel things I love ( including "the Rock, my puppy dog tame cyclura iguana that I have had from a hatchling 18 years ago, it's my avatar on this forum) to go on this trip because I know it will make me just a little better at bonsai.
And yes, Ryan would jump on this like a june bug on a whatever your example was, but I know he would love to spend his time on better material. Ryan is at the point that he has more work than he can possibly do, and may start to pick and choose the groups he works with on what they bring to the table for their potential to improve bonsai in the USA.
I Just not gonna lower my standard on what somone else thinks. Period. The question was what I would pay for that, and I made a joke to let people know that it wouldn't be very much at all.
Vance, I don't care where you live or how much $ you have, if you try hard enough, like you suggest, you can come up with something better than that stick. I had lot's of sticks like that when I first started, but not anymore.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Sorry if I stepped on your hair, that was not my intention. I've never asked anyone to lower their standards but at the same time, I know that a lot of new people have no standards. Standards take experience and exposure to the art. From a newbie point of view this is a good piece of material to work on.
It seems to me when someone that does not have the experience to determine the worth of a piece of material for themselves asks a "What do you think" question we kind of have an obligation to give them the truth subjectively, based on possibilities, species and potential; not on opinion of whether or not the tree is worthy of our skills, as we perceive them to be, or imagine them to be.
I hope your trip to Japan turns out to be all you hope it will be, worth the price you have payed for it which was great. When you return you can tell us all that we are doing right, wrong and WTF are you thinking with that piece of garbage?
elliott
Yamadori
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Vance, I never gave an opinion on if the tree was worthy of my skills. It may be beyond my skills. I gave the opinion of what I thought that material was worth because the poster asked for it. I made a small joke about it to keep things light. Thanks for killing that. If you ask a question here, hopefully you get an answer and hopefully nobody 'steps on your hair" for believing something different than them.
When I get back from Japan, I will not be able to tell anybody what they are doing wrong, right, or WTF they are doing with that piece of garbage-- unless they post up on here and ask. Then they get MY opinion (and then we all be subjected to YOUR opinion of what I say).
Stop being insulted because others think different than you. Bonsai is an art, and everybody is SUPPOSED to think different or it wouldn't be art, it would be a craft like putting a desk together you bought at Ikea. Live and let live please. Thank You
When I get back from Japan, I will not be able to tell anybody what they are doing wrong, right, or WTF they are doing with that piece of garbage-- unless they post up on here and ask. Then they get MY opinion (and then we all be subjected to YOUR opinion of what I say).
Stop being insulted because others think different than you. Bonsai is an art, and everybody is SUPPOSED to think different or it wouldn't be art, it would be a craft like putting a desk together you bought at Ikea. Live and let live please. Thank You
jkd2572
Masterpiece
I would love to have it to see how far I could take a bend.....
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Vance, I never gave an opinion on if the tree was worthy of my skills. It may be beyond my skills. I gave the opinion of what I thought that material was worth because the poster asked for it. I made a small joke about it to keep things light. Thanks for killing that. If you ask a question here, hopefully you get an answer and hopefully nobody 'steps on your hair" for believing something different than them.
When I get back from Japan, I will not be able to tell anybody what they are doing wrong, right, or WTF they are doing with that piece of garbage-- unless they post up on here and ask. Then they get MY opinion (and then we all be subjected to YOUR opinion of what I say).
Stop being insulted because others think different than you. Bonsai is an art, and everybody is SUPPOSED to think different or it wouldn't be art, it would be a craft like putting a desk together you bought at Ikea. Live and let live please. Thank You
You're right, I will attempt to not comment on anything you have to say regardless of how arrogant, self aggrandizing, or condescending.
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GarlR
Mame
Well, what a discussion! Anyway, they still have. Should I buy it and keep it at my dads house? He lives in upstate SC and same heat zone I think.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
It's not a world class Yamadori but it is a tree worthy of the time it will take to make it into a decent bonsai. If $95 is no problem for you to drop on a tree I would say go for it. If that's a stretch in your budget then you can find something of less price and less value. If you did decide to get this tree it would not be a mistake.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Send it to me for two years and I will show you what I could make from it.....
gergwebber
Shohin
do not buy that for carving practice, that's what the clearance rack at big-box-r-us is for.
nathanbs
Omono
Without someone highly skilled like smoke working on this tree for a few years it will never be anything but a stick. If you think your up to the challenge and/or have access to a teacher with advanced skills then buy otherwise I think you'll regret it.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I think that opinion may be accurate for some people but I do not think it will take someone with a high degree of skill to turn this into a decent bonsai. All that is required is a vision for the finished tree which could be approached, copied, or imitated by looking at a lot of similar bonsai in books, INTERNET sites and a host of other sources, and some basic wiring skills that can be obtained from similar sources or through a club.
I don't understand how some of you think that this tree is undoable and continue to tell the owner or potential buyer that this is a mistake. Answer this: Where might you find better material with more potential options than this tree?
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