Two kinds of bonsai attitudes: Realists verses Traditionalists, or the Good Guys verses...

[leatherback]

Do you have a source I can read.

not sure how authorative this is, but some storytelling: https://www.bonsaiempire.com/origin/bonsai-history

 

[AZbonsai]

not sure how authorative this is, but some storytelling: https://www.bonsaiempire.com/origin/bonsai-history

Thats great thanks. More information I can give to my students about bonsai.

 

[Gabler]

Realists verses Traditionalists​

btw.. I think this is a bit cynical.

To state then

the Good Guys verses...​

is basically insulting.

How would you feel if someone would say there are beginners verses bonsaiists. One could say that if you do not understand the importance of taper and the skills needed for developing this well you have not passed the mindset of a beginner, lacking the understanding and scope of bonsai. Nebari - Trunk - Branchplacement - refinement. Steps in developing bonsai? So if you do not value nebari and trunk, you are not doing bonsai.

Does not feel right, does it?

So maybe just stay away of putting people with another vision down, and just focus on why you prefer the way you do bonsai.

I didn't take it that way. I think it was just click bait, plus an acknowledgement that there's more than one "correct" answer.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I have seen many artistic trees that are not traditional that I do enjoy viewing.
I will use this as my example.
Would I find this tree in the wild? Probably not like this. Do I love it? Yes. Is it interesting to look at? Yes. Is it bonsai? Yes
But also I do enjoy fat sumo trees and many other styles.

 

[Adair M]

I have never heard this one. It is interesting. Do you have a source I can read.

Not offhand. I’m repeating what I’ve heard Bill Valavanis say in lectures about bonsai.

 

[hinmo24t]

Looks to me like you found the "square root"

well played

 

[MrWunderful]

So basically you prefer natural looking trees? Sweet.

I don’t. Taters, and green helmet/triangle trees are much harder to make. The require more skill, and attention to detail, years of forethought and execution.

Anyone can hedge prune a ficus in a small pot and call it bonsai.

But the JBP that is 8” tall with a 6” wide base with 1/2” needles is the one that will win shows, draw the looks, get put in magazines and sell for 5k .

Crazy how the only bonsai nurseries that sell “natural looking trees” are called garden centers.

 

[penumbra]

I have never heard this one. It is interesting. Do you have a source I can read.

The first known, and represented in art Chinese bonsai (penjing) was Han Dynasty, 220 BC to 206 AD. By the time of the Song Dynasty, 960 to 1279 AD, the collection and training of these small trees was quite a phenomena and they were displayed in Royal Halls and in the homes of the land owners and literati. Many Song Dynasty scrolls show pictures of this work. Don't ask me what book or books this came from because I can't specifically remember and I probably don't have the books anymore. I am not an expert in all things Chinese, but I did significant research into Chinese History over 20 years of selling antiques ans antiquities. I have retained a lot of it but I am, as they say, moving on.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I have to be honest... I stopped reading after Sorces prompt to hypothetically fill those blanks....

After roughly 20 seconds of thought processes and varying hilarious “answers”.... I had to stop.



I’ve seen trees in ALL these “style forms” that I appreciate.... Keepin’ it simple...

 

[Forsoothe!]

There is a style or type that appeals to everyone, and the more we look, the more we like. To each their own. The question of whether one form or another is or is not "good" bonsai because it is harder to achieve, or made to an ancient standard, or is a species favored by the old Japanese, is the real bone of contention. The world evolves in all aspects, maybe especially in artistic form and tastes. As much as the old masters (in European arts) are admired, modern artists don't spend much time trying to duplicate their works. And therein lies the rub. I have never heard of critiquing today's painters' works by comparing them side-by-side to the Mona Lisa, ad infinitum. While we study the old masters to acquire an understanding of how and why they achieve impact upon viewers, we don't limit ourselves to just reproducing copies of "traditional" art. Neither should bonsaiists.

The question of whether a tree in a pot that looks like a tree in nature is more worthy or less worthy than a highly stylized tree in a pot can't be answered in the absence of their presence, and especially in an abstract discussion. Artistic value and impact are like pornography, "I know it when I see it".

 

[Forsoothe!]

While I'm at it, conspicuous by its absence are the pictures of spuds in the landscape. 'Tater alert!

 

[Wulfskaar]

For some, it seems to be an art form, while for others it's more like a science. As long as we're having fun, I don't care.

One thing is sure... whether it's something you want to do or avoid, every bonsai tree is full of lessons to learn.

 

[Lutonian]

Bowthorpe Oak - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There out there not common but they exist

 

[amcoffeegirl]

While I'm at it, conspicuous by its absence are the pictures of spuds in the landscape. 'Tater alert!

HYG

 

[ShadyStump]

I recall another thread where someone asked about the artistic differences between traditional Japanese style bonsai and American style bonsai. I mentioned there that the most traditionally Japanese styled trees often looked a bit cartoonish to me because they exaggerate and perfect beyond what's natural the shapes and structure. If you want to take the analogy to its extreme you could say the same happens in Japanese anime. Perhaps it's a cultural thing to perfect beyond reason for the sake of interest.

If you want to compare to other less related art forms, we could talk about how ballet is as much about the motions and choreography of the dance as it is about seeing how the human body manipulates to achieve those movements, hence skin tight leotards that show off every curve and muscle, and the search for the perfect body type. The same concepts apply to gymnastics and even professional bodybuilding. Hell, lets throw in architecture while we're at it with the likes of Frank Lloyd Wright, especially where people turn things like edible or flowering plants into bonsai, and must preserve certain buds that would otherwise be cut away to achieve the full desired effect.

So, in the vast world of the art of bonsai- sticking with the ballet analogy- there are some people who get caught up in the costume design, while others obsess over the choreography, then some who look for the perfect body type, and for others (to loosely paraphrase someone else's comment) it's just straight up tree porn for the sake of doing crazy shit in a pot. And then some prefer bodybuilding.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Here’s a couple more from google- bc I’m bored

 

[amcoffeegirl]

 

[_#1_]

When noobs think they know something, they start threads like this

But we are heading toward winter so...

 

[Adair M]

Speaking of hornets' nests, there are really two kinds of bonsai: those that look like trees, and those that look like bonsai. I'd like to begin this discussion with the small area of nebari. Nebari is highly regarded, and in my view to the point of ridiculousness, or should I say out of proportion to real life. I suppose there are places in the world with trees that are very old that have nebari that are in the proportions that are specified as good bonsai of nebari verses trunk caliper verses height of the tree. There are zero in Michigan. As a matter of fact, I have never seen one anywhere outside of pictures from distance lands, and very few of those fit those bonsai relationships. To me, the standard "good" bonsai proportions don't look like real trees. Real trees with giant nebari are a hundred feet tall.

Those standard "good" bonsai trees can be beautiful. A large number of people in hobby bonsai go through all the machinations to get to that end product and almost always they have to make their way through the chop, grow, chop, grow cycles that take years and years and years and come out with a 'Tater. I see others patting them on the back and raving how great these trees are. They don't have proportional branches and still have ordinary leaves that cover the giant scars and terminus of the trunk which is most often still a stump or a big wound. My bias doesn't allow me to do more than wince because they do not look like real trees, and again, I say absolutely no real trees that I have ever seen in the flesh.

I invite others to explain why or how a bonsai that doesn't look like a tree is superior to a tree in a pot that looks like the trees in my yard, my local forests, my whole country. And while you're at it, show me some pictures of real trees in your environs that meet these "good" bonsai proportions that I consider absurd. I grant all comers the privilege of calling me bad names if you feel you must. Try to add something of substance to the conversation while you're at it.

What is the purpose of this thread, Forsoothe? Do none of your trees have good nebari? And are you trying to make excuses for that? Are you trying to get permission from the forum to have trees with poor nebari, using the excuse that poor nebari is “naturalistic”?

If that’s NOT what you are saying, please clarify. Because, it certainly seems that’s what you are crying about.

Fior sure, developing good nebari is challenging. It’s one of the most difficult aspects of bonsai, and a bad nebari can be one of the most difficult “faults” to correct. A good nebari IS part of what defines a quality bonsai. When I judge a bonsai, the lower trunk and nebari get twice the weight than any other aspect of the tree.

So... what are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

 

[Gene Deci]

What is the purpose of this thread, Forsoothe? Do none of your trees have good nebari? And are you trying to make excuses for that? Are you trying to get permission from the forum to have trees with poor nebari, using the excuse that poor nebari is “naturalistic”?

If that’s NOT what you are saying, please clarify. Because, it certainly seems that’s what you are crying about.

Fior sure, developing good nebari is challenging. It’s one of the most difficult aspects of bonsai, and a bad nebari can be one of the most difficult “faults” to correct. A good nebari IS part of what defines a quality bonsai. When I judge a bonsai, the lower trunk and nebari get twice the weight than any other aspect of the tree.

So... what are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

Your questioning of Forsoothe’s motives as you do seems gratuitous. Why not just take his statements at face value and express your opinion. One might be tempted to turn it around and ask what was your purpose in your post? Are you just trying to denigrate Forsoothe because you have no answer to his arguments?