amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
If there is ugly art or a tree in front of a person- well it is only on one side of you- you may simply look away.
Not all styles will appeal to all people.
Two kinds of bonsai attitudes: Realists verses Traditionalists, or the Good Guys verses...
- Thread starter Forsoothe!
- Start date
Not all styles will appeal to all people.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Not that you will answer, but @Forsoothe! why this black and white thinking of yours, especially on this forum where I feel pretty much everyone can join in the conversation. Certainly not
Of course, it does not help if you refuse to believe to the other side.
Which is why it is so strange to see people ignoring other people. A range of visions can only broaden the horizon. Blocking people and opinions come down to censorshi. As
How many opinions are you ignoring?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Art should move people. One way or the other.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
I do see this a bit. I do respect everyone's style and vision although it might not be my cup of tea but thats ok. you do get a sense in some quarters that if youre not doing it the Japanese way its not a good bonsai or its ok but not worthy because it has a hole in it, or a hollow trunk. mine is better because i was more patient and waited 10 years to heal a massive wound. 'ok'
But, the Japanese way isnt the only way and at least its not what i grew up on, nor was i taught it and nor was it the first style that i was endeared to. Nor did i grow up in Japan or had a Japanese teacher. We all take different routes, no one can persuade me to go down a path i dont want to. my bonsai is based on what i see in the landscape, not what i see in books.
with that said, i would like to have a bit of everything in my collection, i do see many people getting cubby holed into one way with no way out, which i find bizarre. isnt variety the spice of life, to me its odd that some folk only want to have one kind of tree in their collection. im pretty confident in my ability to produce scar less trees or trees with massive gaping hollows and holes. trees with multiple subtrunks or one defined trunk line, im confident that i can produce a 'bonsai' or a tree. i dont look at one as being better than the other, there are many paths to producing EQUALLY impressive bonsai.
MrWunderful
Omono
Let me summarize the point of this thread:
Everyone has different taste, but My opinion is more valid than yours.
Everyone has different taste, but My opinion is more valid than yours.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I almost agreed. But here you are wrong my friend!
ghues
Omono
Just a hobbyist here......no formal training. Really appreciate traditional Bonsai and the degree of perfection, the dedication and transformation of trees/shrubs in pots/containers. We all come to this from different backgrounds and life experiences which can form our ideas and perceptions of this art.
I come from a 40 year background in the Coastal PNW Forest industry as a Professional Forester....years of opportunities in the forests examining and studying not only Forest ecosystems but also individual tree species.... so I lean towards having my Bonsai look like real trees (naturalist perhaps) do I pull it off....hhhhhmmmm so subjective “eh”.
I do have trees that some may say fit into a more traditional Bonsai context....those I have tried to style without the influence of a real tree. The other benefit for me.... is the almost zen feeling/focus when applying the various bonsai tasks throughout the year....also my wife always knows where to find me
I come from a 40 year background in the Coastal PNW Forest industry as a Professional Forester....years of opportunities in the forests examining and studying not only Forest ecosystems but also individual tree species.... so I lean towards having my Bonsai look like real trees (naturalist perhaps) do I pull it off....hhhhhmmmm so subjective “eh”.
I do have trees that some may say fit into a more traditional Bonsai context....those I have tried to style without the influence of a real tree. The other benefit for me.... is the almost zen feeling/focus when applying the various bonsai tasks throughout the year....also my wife always knows where to find me
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
So if Bonsai Nut implies an interest and connection to Bonsai.
And Bonsai is clearly a well known traditionally defined art form!
Actually for centuries with various cultural influences.
Should there be a forum for Realistic Nuts, or Naturalistic Nuts?
Surely they deserve equal opportunity to display their defined art form and explain the techniques and standards required to attain this art form.
It does seem unfair that they feel forced to join and participate within a group seemingly dedicated to differing objectives.
Would that not keep everyone happy?
Unless of course the purpose of this thread is simply misunderstood.
And Bonsai is clearly a well known traditionally defined art form!
Actually for centuries with various cultural influences.
Should there be a forum for Realistic Nuts, or Naturalistic Nuts?
Surely they deserve equal opportunity to display their defined art form and explain the techniques and standards required to attain this art form.
It does seem unfair that they feel forced to join and participate within a group seemingly dedicated to differing objectives.
Would that not keep everyone happy?
Unless of course the purpose of this thread is simply misunderstood.
Clicio
Masterpiece
From the beginning I was already lost.
I like a good discussion, but I don't see the point in this one.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
Some have accuse @Forsoothe! of taking a black and white view in this thread, and I'm of the thought that that is exactly to topic of discussion: how do some find their way to taking that one vs the other, black vs white, right vs wrong view of an incredibly diverse artform? I assumed from the get-go that his intent was to start a discussion that challenges that ideology.
Personally...
... I'm this guy in the picture. No, you shouldn't be proud of the literal stump with half a sprig of green that you just dug up for the purpose of having something to put in a show. You didn't do anything, and it's as much art as a banana stuck to the wall with duct tape.
I don't care what you do to it, but it isn't art if you didn't put effort into it. Level of effort determines level of respect for the artist, but not necessarily the work of art itself. Respecting the art and respecting the artist are NOT mutually inclusive.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I think @Forsoothe! needs to rethink the phrasing of the thread's title and try again. It's a good point, but it's not coming across well.
_#1_
Omono
What was the point, or purpose?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
to trigger discussion or piss people off.
It is not the first time this topic has come up, with the same divisive message
Clicio
Masterpiece
I still see no point about this conversation.
It's definitely not about art.
It's definitely not about horticulture.
Is it about "doing things differently"? Well, China has bonsai and penjing.
Taiwan has nice bonsai, and so have Vietnam, Indonesia, Italy, Spain, the UK and the USA.
Think Northern Europe. Australia. Chile.
All can be in many degrees close to the Japanese style or absolutely different from it.
Al can be very good.
We have good tropical bonsai in Brazil. Some try to make a BRT look like a pine (it's useless); others grow pines in the Japanese tradition.
But in all cases, apart from tropicals wired like pines, there are good bonsai and bad bonsai. Beautiful and ugly. Credible and grotesque.
I can understand the effort of the bonsaists that follow all the rules of design to create good bonsai in the Japanese tradition (which of course evolves with time also);
and I understand the approach people call "naturalist" to many tree species foreign to Japan that have NOT a "Japanese Style".
Both can be beautiful and can be considered living pieces of art.
In the end...
The "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG" discussion is the pointless one.
It's definitely not about art.
It's definitely not about horticulture.
Is it about "doing things differently"? Well, China has bonsai and penjing.
Taiwan has nice bonsai, and so have Vietnam, Indonesia, Italy, Spain, the UK and the USA.
Think Northern Europe. Australia. Chile.
All can be in many degrees close to the Japanese style or absolutely different from it.
Al can be very good.
We have good tropical bonsai in Brazil. Some try to make a BRT look like a pine (it's useless); others grow pines in the Japanese tradition.
But in all cases, apart from tropicals wired like pines, there are good bonsai and bad bonsai. Beautiful and ugly. Credible and grotesque.
I can understand the effort of the bonsaists that follow all the rules of design to create good bonsai in the Japanese tradition (which of course evolves with time also);
and I understand the approach people call "naturalist" to many tree species foreign to Japan that have NOT a "Japanese Style".
Both can be beautiful and can be considered living pieces of art.
In the end...
The "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG" discussion is the pointless one.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
so maybe we can get back to posting up trees then
Clicio
Masterpiece
so maybe we can get back to posting up trees then
Much better, I have no doubts about it.
Wulfskaar
Omono
I, for one, appreciate this thread a lot. I think this is a great and healthy conversation to have for any art form.
There is absolute value in having an art form that has strict rules. This makes the art form live on with it's own identity and also makes judging contests a lot cleaner. There is nothing wrong with this.
However, there is also value in pushing an art form to new limits without such rules. This allows free expression and growth of the spirit.
As someone who has yet to reach noob status, I have learned from this forum that "bonsai" translates roughly to "tree in a pot". So, maybe the stricter Japanese style should be officially called "Traditional Japanese Bonsai", while any tree in any pot would be called a bonsai (probably a vast majority).
It's no different than painting. One guy follows the rules of realism, while another slaps paint on a wall with his hands while dancing. Both are paintings. Both might be exquisite work, but some of the strict realists would scoff at such buffoonery as dance painting because painting for 10 days or weeks is more impressive than 10 minutes and takes more detailed skill. Still, both are valid art forms.
I'm more of a Bob Ross type where we just have happy accidents.
There is absolute value in having an art form that has strict rules. This makes the art form live on with it's own identity and also makes judging contests a lot cleaner. There is nothing wrong with this.
However, there is also value in pushing an art form to new limits without such rules. This allows free expression and growth of the spirit.
As someone who has yet to reach noob status, I have learned from this forum that "bonsai" translates roughly to "tree in a pot". So, maybe the stricter Japanese style should be officially called "Traditional Japanese Bonsai", while any tree in any pot would be called a bonsai (probably a vast majority).
It's no different than painting. One guy follows the rules of realism, while another slaps paint on a wall with his hands while dancing. Both are paintings. Both might be exquisite work, but some of the strict realists would scoff at such buffoonery as dance painting because painting for 10 days or weeks is more impressive than 10 minutes and takes more detailed skill. Still, both are valid art forms.
I'm more of a Bob Ross type where we just have happy accidents.
Clicio
Masterpiece
I'm more of a Bob Ross type where we just have happy accidents.
I don't consider a good or superb bonsai a happy accident.
Clicio
Masterpiece
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
And you are not @Wulfskaar, and his trees are not your trees, so you can consider it whatever you like.
Hell, I can barely keep trees alive, so I admire anyone who can make one into something pretty. I doubt even a tenth the population of Bnut can hold a candle to my homemade hot sauces that use all home grown ingredients, though. Or my pickled egg recipe, or my smoked poultry.
Someone just read all that and went
Does that mean they're the lowly uninitiated of the kitchen? No, it means they do baking, or something else that I don't because what I do does not appeal to them. And I can make bread, but you would all much prefer my soups. We can all agree the grandma's pasta sauce is always the best, just not always whose grandma, and we all respect that we're all biased.I promise that many masters in Japan have had this exact conversation, making these exact arguments, and once or twice there was a penjing master from Vietnam watching them, thinking to himself, "what the hell are they arguing about? They're ALL doing it wrong anyway." And you don't want to know what the guy from China thought.
