Two amazing (and large) finds. Help Needed

[Captkingdom]

I went out collecting Monday to retrieve a nice medium Juniper yamadori that I have had my eye on. I am afraid I need to begin this post with the confession that it did not go well. My previous attempts have been almost all out of rock crack etc and this was my first attempt in sand. I began by trenching around the tree at about a 6 foot diameter and early in that process found and cut a large and a couple small roots. Unfortunately, I discovered that those were the only roots and that all of the fine root mass was on the wrong end of my cut, outside my 3' radius. RIP poor little tree.
After this I looked around for something to assuage my disappointment and sooth my guilty conscience. Nearby, I discovered the two trees I have included pictures of. To me they are incredible! They are also quite large, the larger at perhaps 7'. I really want to collect these, particularly the one with the impressive "wave" but I am now gun-shy of this sandy arid environment. I do not want to repeat my earlier mistake.
Can anyone offer any advice for collecting in sand where it is nearly impossible to retain native soil and the roots run a long distance?
My thoughts were to be extra cautious this time try to improve the root mass before collecting. I thought perhaps I should trench around only a portion of the tree now, supply some good soil and encourage a tighter root-ball formation, and then follow up by trenching the other side after the summer ends, hoping to make a final collection next spring. I might be able to even rig some sort of water supply to help it strengthen and develop more root.
Is that a good plan?
These trees are where I can almost drive right to them.
I might also mention that if there was someone that would mentor me and come out and help I would be delighted to offer one of these or any other we could find in exchange.

FYI the rock above the second tree has loosened and could be removed. Both trees felt somewhat loose in their situations.
PS, sorry I couldn't figure out how to get some of these rotated

 

[Captkingdom]

There is one more in gravel that I love, in a different location. massive 12" trunk and 6' tall. Its roots undoubtedly run until they wedge into a rock crevice. Wondered about ground-layer etc.

 

[Giga]

If I was there I would gladly help you, I've collected a few yamadori and the first one could be collectable, but the 2nd without actually being there it's hard to tell as the pictures are kinda hard to tell. Trees with 20 ft roots are not collectable, you will just kill a great tree. You could maybe leave it where it stands, cut one of the long tap roots pack with spagnum moss and re burry the root that's close to the tree. You may have to drive out with water jugs to help keep it moist every so often. Lots of work but could be worth it.

Most junipers can survive with little roots BUT you'll need a misting house to keep it alive or do it your self every hour or so! Go to Peter tea blog and look at big sexy, kinda shows you what I mean.

 

[Captkingdom]

As I have been asked, I do plan to get a permit.

Thanks, Giga. I thought the same thing. Maybe I could do a ground layer at each major root

 

[MidMichBonsai]

I would use caution when finding a tree, "to assuage my disappointment". This can inhibit judgment because it's a rebound from a disappointment. I would give it some time (a couple of weeks) and approach the project with fresh eyes. You unfortunately laid to rest 1 tree thus far. It would be unfortunate to come out the other side having laid 3 to rest and no tree to show for it. Take your time, way the options, determine if you have a high likelihood of successfully collecting and then proceed.

By the way, Peter Tea's "Big Sexy" did require a fork lift to repot so consider that as you make your collecting decisions. Is this the size of tree your REALLY want to deal with long-term?

Best.

 

[wireme]

My opinion, those trees are too special to try any techniques you haven't tried and proven already.
The old "root enhancement" trick, ie:cutting and reburial, I think you really need to know your species, conditions, all sorts of variables for it to work. I'm skeptical, I know people have used that method for a long time but I just keep seeing reports of failure like, "we went back to collect the tree and it had died". The great advantage, you don't have to watch it die in front of your eyes.
The big sexy post scares me, how many will look at those pics and say junipers don't need roots, let's collect anything! That collector knew exactly what it would take, had the infrastructure to pull it off and maybe was lucky to a degree as well, even with the best of care does a tree like that always pull through?
I collected 30 trees last season, every one is still alive and well, because I really try to choose collectible trees based on my own experiences, almost always rock pocket trees, can't help with advice for sandy gravely soils because I stay away from them thinking I'd be likely to kill them. The nicer the tree the more sure I have to be of collection to try.

 

[Giga]

Midmitch and wireme bring up good points, I was speaking from years of experience in collecting and keeping trees alive. I got a massive juniper this year and it's right and the breaking point in weight, but I have the material and means to keep it alive. Those guys seem like they will be there for many years to come so I would learn and and maybe get younger less magnificent tree to learn how not to kill them. Mainly what to look for when you can proper collect old tree. I collected some very old pines this year, but only because I knew what to look for and proper after care. Maybe take a club member?

 

[sorce]

I completely appreciate the collecting efforts.

Even more so the not collecting efforts.

I am a teeterer. Yes. A teeterer.

Good skill!

Sorce

 

[Captkingdom]

Thanks for all the input.

 

[jk_lewis]

As I have been asked, I do plan to get a permit.

That means you killed the first one withOUT a permit?

I hope you realize that some trees just aren't meant to be collected. I hope you also realize that while it will be LOT of work to collect one of these, the real work comes after that -- keeping it alive. That takes experience, and I wonder, from your earlier messages and the fact you didn't know a permit would be needed, whether you have that experience. It would be a shame for greed to kill another handsome tree.

 

[rockm]

COOL IT. Grabbing it without actually knowing HOW to grab it dooms your effort and the tree's life. It's silly to simply pull these up and hope for the best. Believe me, you will be embarrassed for years to come when these kick off in two months in your backyard because of lack of experience in aftercare. One of first things I learned 20 years ago as I began collecting is to cool my jets when I found a really nice tree. They don't make that many REALLY nice yamadori and letting your patience run short can kill them. After losing several VERY nice trunks,I learned that taking some time to get experience with collecting lesser trees made getting the really good one exponentially easier. I watched one particular tree for three years before digging it.

And do all of us collectors a favor-- GET PERMISSION BEFORE YOU DIG--NOT AFTERWARDS. Trees yanked willy nilly from public (or private) lands without permission does us all a disservice.
And BTW, killing what may have been a couple hundred year old tree outright just because you wanted it NOW should temper your decision to move on those other spectacular and old trees.

 

[Captkingdom]

It is incorrect to assume that I didn't know a permit would be required, nor to assume I do not realize that much after care is required.
I would hope that you would all assume by my questions that I am earnestly looking for proper collection and care techniques and procedures and am obviously not rushing into these as evidenced by on own proposed plan of a year plus collection schedule.
As noted, I appreciate the cautions and appeals to level headedness which I will certainly take to heart.
I do hope however, that when the ethical advisory's are complete, some practical advice might follow; whether I ultimately attempt to collect these trees or simply find another specimen I deem more appropriate, I will certainly continue my attempts to learn and master the art of collecting yamadori, and your practical advice is greatly desired and appreciated.

 

[rockm]

You are basically asking "I want to learn to drive, let's start by you showing me how to drive this formula 500 racer at 200 mph" Not an easy thing to do and will wind up with something getting killed.

You are not going to learn how to successfully extract THOSE big trees from an arid environment in a year, even if someone chimes in online with detailed advice on how to go about it. Collection, especially with big trees with expansive root systems (or possibly scant roots) are among the most difficult to dig. Digging is only about 1/3 of the collection process. Being able to provide proper aftercare can be even harder for a beginner than the actual dig. It varies from species to species to species as well as individual tree to individual tree. I'd save the choicest trees for when you've got a few years under your belt. Start with smaller, more collectable trees that will give you some hands-on experience.

If you really want to master collecting yamadori, you will kill a few trees. Hopefully those trees aren't thousand-year-old specimen quality trees like the one hanging off that ridge.

 

[jk_lewis]

Start out by going on several collecting trips with an EXPERIENCED collector and give him/her a hand; then, in a year or two, ask that person to give YOU a hand . . .

 

[M. Frary]

Or throw all of that advice out the window,throw caution to the wind and go dig another.
Trying to dig something like these up would scare me to death. I'm used to roots close to the trunk. Not just 1 root 10 feet long. And the whole expose the root,cut it wrap in sphagnum? Not me. Sorry but those kind of trees would just have to stay where they are. I'll stick to swamps and forests.

 

[Mr. Wind-Up Bird]

The problem I have, is while those trees would greatly enhance any private garden, I feel the location of where the trees are now, would be greatly diminished by their absence.